Frustrated with LFS prices and quality

[RichConley]

I just want to clear something up here.

I have no problem with any of the sponsors. I like the stores, and FREQUENTLY drive more than an hour to go to the LFS. I've bought a ton of stuff. Theyre great stores.


My points are more towards LFS/Small business in general. The market is changing, and if they dont change with them, theyre going to fail, and thats bad for everyone involved in this discussion.

 

[Reefdweller]

A lot of great points here. I can give 2 examples of businesses that eliminated the middleman and managed to provide a reasonable level of quality. Home Depot and Dell. Think of all the clinics HD used to have just to educate their customers. And Dells model was to eliminate the middleman and still maintain good quality and exceptional service. How many electronic stores were put out of business

We all want LFS to succeed, but to do that they need to change. The members of BRS would be the first to help those stores that really want to compete on that level. We all want a good deal, whether its price, quality, knowledge, or the experience. It can happen if this thread is taken as constructive criticism. and not a threat.

I heard some great ideas here. Do any of the LFS have the... to think out of the box and implement some of these ideas. I'll be first in line to attend a clinic on some interesting aspect of reefing. This is good customer relations and creates allegiance to the LFS.

I hope that some LFS takes the lead on some of these ideas. It would be great for everyone- customers and LFSs.

 

[zemuron114]

Well... this discussion is funny and disapointing at the same time.

Comparing Liveaquaria to the regular LFS around here is insane. They have virtually no overhead... they rent warehouses for 1/10 of what it cost here for the same square footage. Say it cost 3000 a month for a 2000 sq/ft space. In Wisconsin (where Liveaquaria is) for that same space it would cost 500. This allows them to buy a MUCH bigger area.
they are basically a wholesaler that sells to the public. They bring in fish direct frpm a lot of places (including some high end places like australia) and sell them very low. They mainly deal with quality marine as well which allows them a bigger reach into the trade because quality gets fish from EVERYWHERE and they allow liveaquaria to cherry pick everything before others.
I've ordered from them 2x and both times the fish came in like crap and died within a few days. Screw that! I would much rather pay 10-20% more the first time for a fish that WILL live.
Marinedepot and liveaquaria also bring in HUGE HUGE amounts of dry goods from the manufacturer... this allows VERY VERY low shipping cost to them (and sometimes the manufacturer's warehouse is in the same area which means NO shipping). They bought that maxijet 1200 for 9$ add 1$ for shipping, and WHAM! you get the 18.99$. LFS buy the same maxijet for 9$ adds 7-9$ for shipping, and WHAM!.. same one is now 36$...

I agree some LFS charge to much, but so do some online vendors...

30$ for a small yellow tang is GOOD price!!!! I've seen them wholesale for 15$. Liveaquaria was selling a 6" yellow for 80$.... Aquarium gallery was selling a rhomboid pair for 600ish.. liveaquaria was selling them for 750...

Liveaquaria has 20x more water volume then any LFS you will ever see, and more water volume then some wholesalers!

the plain and simple fact is that if you want lower prices MOVE TO LA. You cannot compare LA/warehouse prices to eastcoast prices... East will never win this battle and LA knows it.

I am a wholesaler so i know basically ALL the prices of everyfish you can possibly get to a yellow tang to a black tang. From what i've seen locally in MA the prices are actually pretty good. There are a few stores here and there that will charge a little more of course, but in general the prices are very reasonable. Dry good prices are just stupid to compare online to store front. Do you know how much you can buy a ASM G3 from asmskimmers.com?? 258.00$.. Do you know the WHOLESALE price they sell to a LFS??? 250$... dry goods are a different ballgame when it comes to a LFS... most do not make much money off dry goods.

Do you know how much it cost to ship a coral colony??? a lot... that 20$ colony from jakarta becomes landed at 35$ and then the cost to keep it alive becomes 45$ add the rent for the store and the colony next to it that died (that they DONT get a refund for like every reefer wants) that coral is now 75$. A lfs sells it for 150$ Good for them. they need to eat just like everyone else.

Quality is a different story. The poor LFS will be weeded out leaving the respectable ones. If you dont like one store, move on to the next until you find one you do like. If someone likes a LFS you dont, then so be it.

Liveaquaria can afford a 14 day guarentee. most LFS cannot. Since live aquaria brings in 400 clown gobies, and sell all 400 within a month, maybe 40 will be called in saying they died within the 14 day guarentee... they dont lose any money barely in the long run. A LFS will bring in 10 for more money then them...

Do you think the big online stores QT their fish for a month OR corals like everyone wants?? Hell no. Fish come in on a monday, are fed (sometimes...) purged again then shipped out on thursday assuming they are sold.. 90% of the time fish that come in are gone within 1-4 weeks... Corals are rarely QTd.. reguardless of what the store says, they always skimp on Qting, because during the QT process things die and then they start to lose money...

dont complain about LFS prices if you dont know the whole chain of events and the competition they have to endure everyday with all these huge online stores. If you are that upset about it start your own store and try to compete with everyone else

 

[dz6t]

I am a wholesaler

Thanks for the input. Edited. Joking insult removed per request of BoD.

 

[RichConley]

Zemuron, you completely missed the point here. We're NOT complaining about price. We understand they need to charge more that LA,etc.

What they (and you) dont understand, is they need to give us a reason why to spend more, which is very different from why it costs more.


Consumers dont care that the LFS needs to spend more to get thier products. They dont care that you pay huge electric bills because you chose all VHO instead of a more efficient lighting type, and becketts instead of needlewheels.

What the consumer cares about, is "What do I get for spending that extra 30%?"

I'm willing to spend more at an LFS, they just have to understand that they have to give me more. If they can't do that, then theres no reason to pay more. Yes, that sounds selfish, but capitalism is inherently selfish.

 

[crzy4reefs]

i agree if they want to charge the high prices at least have corals that are good looking and healthy.

 

[Aqua Addict]

I hate to break it to you Rich but the majority of this entire post is Price and Quality especially including the Title of this post... I do agree that we do have to conform to survive and change the way we do things but for the most part it all revolves around price and quality... Somehow you guys seem to morph every post about Price and quality into something else... Thanks for the ideas and we are all taking steps so we are here for a long time..

Mike

 

[Chris L]

well said mike

 

[Greg Hiller]

I haven't commented much here, but I will just mention one thing.

For me, in my life, some of the time at least....time = money

When someone new sets up a tank, they may need a load of equipment. If they go into a local shop that knows what they are doing and knows what equipment works, and has the equipment available, and can show the person in a few minutes how it works....that is worth an enormous amount of $ in my opinion. While I agree that folks should read some books and learn about how to let up a tank before attempting to do so, the value of having a bunch of stuff that you need in one spot, with the know how to back it up is considerable. I cannot tell you how many useless, non-working pieces of equipment for this hobby I have purchased over the years, mostly because at the time I got started, there were no shops near me that knew much about reefkeeping (that has changed). If you walk into a shop that knows what they are doing, they will steer you away from the junk equipment.

 

[Greg Hiller]

The frustration of not having the right equipment, or know-how, and ending up with a tank that is a disaster, is probably one of the more frequent reasons that folks just starting up give up after a few months.

 

[Alex]

majority of this entire post is Price and Quality especially including the Title of this post...

I'd say it's more about price relative to quality or in other words value.

 

[RichConley]

I'd say it's more about price relative to quality or in other words value.

Exactly.

And as Greg stated, for a newbie, theres huge value in someone showing you how to use the equipment, etc. For those of us who have been around a couple years, that starts being less value. Greg doesnt need anyone to show him how to set up his new skimmer.

 

[littlep93056]

Zemuron, you completely missed the point here. We're NOT complaining about price. We understand they need to charge more that LA,etc.

What they (and you) dont understand, is they need to give us a reason why to spend more, which is very different from why it costs more.


Consumers dont care that the LFS needs to spend more to get thier products. They dont care that you pay huge electric bills because you chose all VHO instead of a more efficient lighting type, and becketts instead of needlewheels.

What the consumer cares about, is "What do I get for spending that extra 30%?"

I'm willing to spend more at an LFS, they just have to understand that they have to give me more. If they can't do that, then theres no reason to pay more. Yes, that sounds selfish, but capitalism is inherently selfish.

Will free pizza work ????????

 

[Reefdweller]

Will free pizza work ????????

Maybe your just kidding, but no that alone won't work. I'll pay for the pizza myself just to go over to reefer's house and talk shop and see their setup. I have yet to see a LFS witha reef half as nice as some of the reefs I see at reefers homes.

I haven't visited your store, but when I go to a LFS I like to see something neat and cool, and learn something I didn't already know. Pizza might help get me there, but I'm really coming for the other factors.

 

[rjdudek]

Posts about price and quality do get "morphed" by us guys into something else. They turn into discussions about ways to add value to the purchases at LFSs. It does no good to talk about lowering prices, everyone concedes that it won't happen and it would be of no help to anyone to just grouse about it without theorizing about corrective measures. Many of the people on these threads express ideas that I would consider adult and thoughtful. That is: if you have a complaint you should also have a possible solution and if you see someone obliviously struggling offer your input before they hit the bottom. A good business is dynamic; it adds value while reducing operating expenses and looking for new market opportunities. As soon as business abandons any of them it starts to fail. We have all accepted that in our own marketplaces, why is this industry exempt from the current paradigm?

 

[rjdudek]

Well... this discussion is funny and disappointing at the same time.

Comparing Liveaquaria to the regular LFS around here is insane. They have virtually no overhead... they rent warehouses for 1/10 of what it cost here for the same square footage. Say it cost 3000 a month for a 2000 sq/ft space. In Wisconsin (where Liveaquaria is) for that same space it would cost 500.

I assume your trying to be the funny end of the thread, if not:
Come on, your posting with adults. No one reasonable believes LiveAquariua is 2 guys in an unheated 10x20 steel shed. Have you been there? Please go before you come up with comments like their rent is 25 cents a sqft/mo.

I do agree with you as I mentioned in a previous post: and you repeat here, LA gets the best livestock at the best price to hit the US, that is what buying power can get you.

They also support frag swaps, coral propagation classes and have live speakers on a regular basis. Where you ask? At their 2nd building in the high rent part of town devoted to fish goods only. Why you may also ask? Because they are a LFS also. I have read several papers on the Foster&Smith business model none mentioned funding by rich uncles, Lotto or buried treasure, seems to revolve around hard work and trying new ideas or something like that.

There is no evil intent to these posts that I can find, this is a group of customers discussing what would make them happy in a ideal retailer. It is beyond me why any merchant would get upset. If you believe it does not apply to your operation then there nothing to worry about. If it does apply then keep an open mind and see if anything comes out you can use.

 

[smcnally]

I assume your trying to be the funny end of the thread, if not:
Come on, your posting with adults. No one reasonable believes LiveAquariua is 2 guys in an unheated 10x20 steel shed. Have you been there? Please go before you come up with comments like their rent is 25 cents a sqft/mo.

You've obviously never been to Wisconsin, Montana, or anywhere out that way huh? Rent out there IS dirt cheap. I had a beautiful house in MT that cost me a whopping $64k. that same house out this way would have cost me ~$300k.

 

[JavaJones]

There's a nice observation in James Surowiecki's book: The Wisdom of Crowds (2004).

"values which are commonly known are underpriced; those which are not are overpriced."

This simple proposition undermines that all-powerful, grade-school notion always bandied about in these kinds of threads: supply and demand.

 

[Alex]

To all the LFS owners who are reading this I would like you to know that I do see the inherent value in a well run store front. I know that some of this thread seems like a bunch of complaining about prices and some of them have been but I think the majority have been an attempt to explain what we're (I guess non newbie reefers) are looking for. Your dedicating the money and resources to being a sponser to a certain group. I can only speak for myself but my comments have been directed at having a productive discussion about what I think it will take for LFS to flourish in the future not how your all doomed to go out of bussiness because of internet companies. I'm just telling you what I think are things that are going to keep me coming back to you guys. As has been stated I do understand that your probably not going to be able to lower your prices to internet levels. All you have to do is get me in the door. I just need a reason. Just ask the guys at skiptons. I don't think I've ever spent less than a hundred dollars after I walked in that store. I think I have two of those cards all filled out with signatures laying around.

Hello my name is Alex and I'm a reefaholic.

I want you to take my money. I just want it to be in an arangement that makes me feel good about giving it to you.

 

[rjdudek]

Sorry Steve, Was there less than 3 months ago and signed a new lease for our 3rd warehouse in that state. That is when I had the opportunity to stay over and take a day to see the Foster & Smith operation. They are really great people, a bit hammy and a bit boastful about their facility, but happy to talk about it and show off. Part of my job is traveling to new facility sites to approve the business plan before signing the lease. We are in 43 states with over 120 offices. I have a bit of experience in business models, facilities and operations. I have been doing this for 30 years.