New 40breeder help

[diverbh4]

I just got a new 40b tank with a sump but I can't fit my Red Sea Berlin skimmer in the sump. I was using it as a HOB skimmer on my last tank...so should I just make it a HOB on the sump and stick the pump in either the drain section or return section?
There is a bubble tower section and I think that if I remove that I can stick the skimmer in the return section (where the bubble tower is).
I am also looking for suggestions for a return pump for this setup just going straight from the sump to the top of the display, but have never had to figure out what pump I should get.

Second issue is lighting. I am still debating on T5 or MH light, budget is a factor. I have read that some people go for a 24-30" T5 4-5bulb setup instead of a 36" fixture. Doesn't this create dark spots on the sides, and would one MH bulb do the same thing? I am looking to keep mainly softies and LPS but will have a couple pieces of SPS at the top.

Final question is if I have sand in my refugium area in my sump, should I have the whole system going when the tank goes through its cycle, or would I be ok not having a return pump for a while and just have both tanks cycle separately, and connect when I get a pump?

 

[Jocko]

Gosh I love MH, but with a tank that is longer, you'd have a hard time getting even coverage with a single MH bulb. Personally I think I'd recommend keeping an eye on the marketplace and snag the first nice 36" T5 fixture you see. That should save a lot of money. I'd definitely make sure it's one with individual reflectors. A little patience should pay off nicely.

 

[gweston]

For the skimmer, I kept my skimmer as a HOB on my display/sump system. It wouldn't fit in my sump either. It works. I'd prefer it in the sump, but it works for now. This is an option while you ponder your next move, and potentially upgrade to a sump friendly skimmer later.

Your return pump entirely depends on your flow rate and head height. There are calculators out there to help you estimate. First find out what the max GPH is for your overflow, and start from there. You want a pump that can reach that flow rate + any loss incurred by head height (flow loss from the height of the sump to the display return). If the sump is in a basement and the display on the 1st floor. You'll need a much larger return pump than if you have an under-tank sump. The more twists and turns in your plumbing.. the more head height is required. That is why people tend to avoid 90 degree elbows and instead go with 45s on their plumbing. Also why spa-flex is popular. But it all depends on your individual tank, requirements/preferences.

As for lighting: That discussion opens up a can of worms. Like Mac vs PC maybe. Both have their benefits and drawbacks. You could get away with a single MH (250w should be plenty), if you have a good large reflector that can help cover your tank better. The 40B is rather wide, so the ends may not get quite as much. MH sucks more electricity and the bulbs need to be replaced more often. You may be fine to snag 2x175wMH reflectors for the 40B and get plenty of light for most anything. T5HO needs more bulbs to generate the same level of PAR, but you have a LOT of options/combinations for colors. The bulbs use less electricity, and they last longer than MH. Bulb cost is a bit cheaper too. I'd say a 36"fixture with 4x bulbs would be a minimum. For a 40B, you are likely better off with a 6x or 8x bulb setup. That would yield plenty of light. You can consider going 'retrofit'. Where you use a hood and install your own endcaps and ballast too. With retrofit, you can install 6x bulbs to start. If you feel you need more light.. toss on 2x more later. My preference? I like both. I am considering putting 3x 250w MH's with a set of T5HO's (for actinics/blues) over my 'in progress' tank.. the forever 'in progress' big tank. LOL

You can cycle both the sump and display together. It will simplify things. Only thing to test parameters for, rather than two. Remember to seed it with some liverock and livesand. Save some money though and use mostly dry rock and sand. You save a lot of cash and only sacrifice on some more time to wait for the cycle to wrap up.

Also another note, think about your overflow/return design. I'd highly suggest drilling the tank for an overflow. The return isn't such a big deal. It could go over the edge, but looks nicer if the return is drilled in too. You can get a lot of good advice on how to set that up in the best manner to prevent overflows, prevent noise issues, etc. A good simple overflow is something like what can be found from that glass holes place online. 1" drain, 3/4" return is typical. You could even use loc-line on the return to split the 3/4" into two 1/2" that can be positioned/moved around wherever you like.

 

[diverbh4]

Thanks for the input.

Ill elaborate on my system a little more to give you a better idea of what I am working with.
It is a 40b with a 20L sump in the stand. There is a center 1.5" overflow in an internal overflow box, the pvc goes from 1.5" to 1" before going into the bubble tower (3 90deg turns before getting to the sump). The return is a couple of 90deg elbows then 2 more 90deg going into the display (over the back).

I think I am going to try and fit the skimmer pump in where the bubble tower is from the overflow. Should I have the water that comes from the skimmer go back in where the skimmer pump is or into the fuge (middle) part of the sump?

Right now there is dry sand and rock so I need to go through a full cycle with the whole setup, but since I am still looking for a return pump I was trying to see if I can just start the cycle in both the display and sump separately but with a couple pieces of shrimp in each. Once I get the return pump then have the water go through the whole system. Or should I wait until I get the return to start the cycle with the system as a whole instead of 2 parts then becoming 1?

I really like the T5's with the variety of spectrum I can use over the tank and think that maybe a retro would be the best/cheapest way to do that. However I dont really know where to begin looking for them haha

 

[cilyjr]

i hear ya on budget being a big cause for concern especially when purchasing lighting. it was for me back when i started as well. what i would like to mention is that as my enthusiasm for the hobby grew my desire to keep more exotic sea life requiring upgrades in lighting when i was all done i had bought 3 different lighting fixtures. it would have been cheaper to buy higher end from the beginning. that aside a retrofit kit would be the way to get more lighting for your money and high end t5 will allow you to keep pretty much anything you may want.
setting up retro kits is easy the wiring out of the ballast to the bulb is labeled right on the ballast and each ballast will run 2 bulbs. mirrored individual reflectors are going to put more light back into the tank and it is one of the places where i would spend the extra money. buy the cheaper bulbs at first because you can replace them out later with the nicer giesemann bulbs.

 

[cilyjr]

oh yeah if you could post a pic or 2 of your current plumbing and sump it would be helpful to help you

 

[diverbh4]

so I would need 3 ballasts in order to run 6 bulbs? and is that still less energy used than a MH?

 

[willray]

Not if you get a ballast that can drive more than 2 bulbs.Personally I like my icecapp 660 ballast (which will light 16' of lamp)so you could power 5 bulbs over driving the bulbs,don't remember exact numbers but that would put you in the area of 250-300 watts plenty for anything in a 40 breeder and for shimmer put a led strip in.

 

[Reefried]

......Yeah with t5's the ice cap 660 can drive all lamps in any combination up to 4 lamps, so long as the total lamp length does not exceed 16'.......and the 430 for T5HO lamps, it will not operate any more than 2 lamps regardless of wattage of length....so to power 5 lamps you would need a 660 and a 430.........

...and IMO the 40 breeder is a great t5 tank, cause even with a 250 watt mh pendant its tough to cover the 36" and if your going with 39 watt t5's (which are 36" wide, and your right about the 24" 24 watt t5's you'd get shady spots on both ends) then you can fit 6 but 5 would be good enough to grow anything......you can buy the tek t5 set-up with bulbs right now ($369) cheaper than the same tek retro kit (Over $400)..........

.......and i would hang the skimmer on the sump and put the pump in the drain section, next to the bubble tower, and have the skimmer output (clean water from skimmer) come back into the return section if possible but it can come into the fuge section if its a better fit for plumbing.........and you could use a mag 5 (500gph) which i use for a 37 gall, or maybe a quiet one 2200 (580gph), and be able to ball them back a bit and handle head height

 

[diverbh4]

that makes things easier haha what are good places to look at retro kits(if posting sites aren't allowed please PM me the sites)

does anyone know if I can start the cycle on the display and sump separately and then connect the two when I pick up a pump? (i will have one before the cycles end)
I would also cycle them both the same way with a couple pieces of shrimp to aid the cycle.

 

[willray]

......Yeah with t5's the ice cap 660 can drive all lamps in any combination up to 4 lamps, so long as the total lamp length does not exceed 16'.......so to power 5 lamps you would need a 660 and a 430.........

Why would both be needed? 3'x5=15' still 1' under the 660's ability.

 

[gweston]

Why would both be needed? 3'x5=15' still 1' under the 660's ability.

The 660 can drive only 4 lamps... up to 16'. So you could have 4x24" lamps. But not 5x24" lamps. Or you could have 4x36" lamps, but not 5x36" lamps. Or you could have 3x60" lamps, but not 4x 60" lamps.

 

[Jocko]

that makes things easier haha what are good places to look at retro kits(if posting sites aren't allowed please PM me the sites)

does anyone know if I can start the cycle on the display and sump separately and then connect the two when I pick up a pump? (i will have one before the cycles end)
I would also cycle them both the same way with a couple pieces of shrimp to aid the cycle.

Seriously you can get some awesome deals on the for sale forums here. I guarantee you, the second you buy a brand new light, someone is going to post an even better light for way cheaper. That always happens!

Also, cycling with shrimp pieces is a bad idea. It will lead to an overly large bacteria population that will suddenly starve and die off when you remove the shrimp. Not sure where your dry rock is coming from, but if it originated out of the ocean or another tank, it will have plenty of dried gunk in it already. You need to get at least a little bit of live rock in the tank to seed it with various bacteria and other life. Then it will start to spread. Don't add anything that isn't ultimately meant for the system in the long run or you'll disrupt the process of your bacteria populations reaching equilibrium. Add some live rock. Wait for levels to reach zero. Add some clean up crew. Wait for levels to reach zero. Add a couple of fish. Wait for levels to reach zero. Each step along that path you make a small increase in the bioload and then you wait while the bacterial population increases appropriately and your system settles into a nice balance. Things like the old dead shrimp technique actually are more disruptive and can make the process of reaching a nice, stable equilibrium take longer. I hope that made sense. Good luck!

 

[gweston]

Realize that Icecap ballasts overdrive the bulbs a bit. You get more output with some sacrifice on bulb life. You could consider a standard/spec ballast as an alternative. There are lots of discussions on the topic on this site and others. Consider increased cooling requirements, and the possibility that a higher end bulb may be needed if you overdrive. Theoretically reduces the risk of premature failure. But I don't have all the facts. Lighting is a confusing subject...

I got this quote per a post, and was supposedly from Icecap:

"4 lamp combination of T5HO lamps driven on a 660 will result in additional PAR of between 25-40% more output versus a standard ballast. 2 lamp combination of T5HO lamps on a 430 will result in 25-30% more PAR than a standard ballast."

 

[willray]

The 660 can drive only 4 lamps... up to 16'. So you could have 4x24" lamps. But not 5x24" lamps. Or you could have 4x36" lamps, but not 5x36" lamps. Or you could have 3x60" lamps, but not 4x 60" lamps.

......Yeah with t5's the ice cap 660 can drive all lamps in any combination up to 4 lamps,

B,B,B,B, thats all folks.I had a brain skip.

 

[diverbh4]

So instead of using something dying/dead to have the bacteria jump-started, just use some live rock and live sand in addition to all the dead rock and sand?

Also I would love it if there was a retro or T5 unit up on this forum for cheap but alas there hasn't been one in a while haha
I guess I need to do some more research on ballasts and everything since I havnt really read much about it since I usually bought setup fixtures in the past.

 

[jprince]

This is the light I had on that tank. Huge par numbers on the sand even with older stock bulbs. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1906645

 

[Jocko]

So instead of using something dying/dead to have the bacteria jump-started, just use some live rock and live sand in addition to all the dead rock and sand?

Yeah. First off, you at least need a little live rock because that's going to have a bunch of different types of bacteria and other tiny critters on it. This is basically seeding the biodiversity of your tank. The best thing is if you can get some that is coming out of an established tank because it will have that much more life on it than the stuff from the LFS. Plus it will be cheaper buying from someone on here. Did I mention that I like the BRS marketplace?

Putting in the dead shrimp will cause the bacteria population to skyrocket and then once the shrimp meat is out, the population will crash right back down again because the food source is gone. Better to just let the bacteria population grow slowly as you slowly introduce new livestock to the tank. Each new livestock will add some new waste (i.e. bacteria food) so the population of bacteria will be able to grow a little. A "cycled" tank simply means that your population of bacteria is in balance with the available food source for them. Being "cycled" isn't so much a step that you check off a todo list, it's really a state of being in balance. Any change will upset that balance until things level out again.

 

[diverbh4]

Gotcha. I wasn't understanding the fact that once you take out the shrimp the bioload will drop too much for the bacteria to be sustained. In the past I only had used LR and LS but now i am transferring dry rock and sand, so Ill be on the look out for some live stuff here.
I finally got a return pump so now I dont need to worry about starting 2 cycles instead of one complete system which will make my lie a little easier

 

[diverbh4]

OK, so now I have a return pump, but I need to figure out how to connect it to the PVC return pipe. Do I just attach the two with PVC or should I use a more flexible tube to connect the two, and how do I go about doing that?