New to Forum and Salt. Setting up two 55g

[eatmorelionfish]

Hey everyone,
I've been caring for freshwater fish and shrimp since i was ten and am done giving most of my freshwater fish away. I have two 55g getting ready to be put into use. One is for my family, and the other is for my dorm. I don't have money for much stuff so won't be going for any reef setup, but rather a FOWLR (which i heard is easier of the three for beginners, right?)

few questions as before i start cycling the first tank that i can't seem to get definite answers on. If the tank understock, can we understock on liverock, say only 55lbs for each 55g tank? will vodka/sugar help speed up cycling? can we use tap water + seachem prime + instant ocean and not buy an expensive RO? Also, can our Marineland HOT Magnum 300 canister + 500gph wet/dry filter + DIY nitrate/algae filter (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180385&highlight=algae+diy) substitute a protein skimmer?

When I'm away at school for 3 months at a time, my family will be taking care of the 55. They're not very experienced and don't have too much time. What stocking would you recommend that is on the cheap side and hardy, but will keep my parents and younger brother interested to routinely maintain? How long do juvenile yellowtail damsels have those brilliant spots for?

current fish I'm looking at:
Clown (2-3)
juvenile yellowtail (2)
Blue chromis (2)
1 Fairy basslet
Flame Cardinal (2)

Is this good considering only 55lbs of live rock +wet/dry + nitrate filter?

As for my tank, I'm interested in just one nice fish, and been considering the antennata lionfish (Pterois antennata). This fish is hardy right? I plan on leaving the fish over winter and spring break (2.5weeks) in my dorm room. can they survive that long without anyone feeding?

Greatly appreciate the feedback

 

[biggyclops]

When I'm away at school for 3 months at a time, my family will be taking care of the 55. They're not very experienced and don't have too much time. What stocking would you recommend that is on the cheap side and hardy, but will keep my parents and younger brother interested to routinely maintain?

not to be a jerk but... if they don't have that much time or experienced (unless they are easy to motivate) i see a big disaster.. especially when they are doing water tests when there are problems with the tank or even maintenance.. are they going to mix 10 gallons of salt to do water changes every few weeks?

 

[The Ng Thing]

I agree with the above. My family members enjoy feeding my tank ...sometimes too much ....but they will not do maintenance nor do they know how to recognize the signs of a problem on the rise. With all the money I've invested I'd rather leave the responsibility to the people who are interested and motivated, which in my case is just me.

I don't mean to discourage but make sure they know what they are getting into if you go down this route.

Having said all that, I'd recommend you keep things simple.

1)You don't need sugar/vodka to cycle the tank, I'm pretty sure it is only meant to help feed corals.
2)I personally wouldn't understock on liverock unless you have big fish/fish that need room to swim. (My reasoning: the more rock, the more biological filtration)
3) I'd recommend against tap water especially if your not going to do alot of live rock. There wil be an initial algae bloom and the tap water will make it worse.
4)In a 55 the mentioned items are not a good substitute for a skimmer. They don't work the same way. The wet/dry filter and canister have the potential to be huge detritis deposits and without a skimmer your nitrates will go sky high.

I would modify the wet/dry into a sump and use the canister for flow. I'd also add some powerheads and a skimmer. Leave the main filtration up to your sandbed and rockwork. Only use the canister as a means of trapping large waste particles and to house some carbon.

5) Feeding, 2.5 weeks is too long of a wait to feed your fish, especially if they are small and have a high metabolism (active swimmers) You can space the feedings out. The longest i've ever let my BIG fish go was 5-6 days but they were always well-fed and healthy beforehand.

I hope this helps, Good luck!

-David

 

[biggyclops]

"DIY nitrate/algae filter (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...ight=algae+diy) substitute a protein skimmer?"

I was actually going to do this... only problem is that you can only clean one side at a time to keep it going... also heard of green water from this type of setup... so i would probably do this with a skimmer..

Also does anyone know what the difference is from that setup and a refugium? seems the same just a difference in surface area..

 

[eatmorelionfish]

I agree with the above. My family members enjoy feeding my tank ...sometimes too much ....but they will not do maintenance nor do they know how to recognize the signs of a problem on the rise. With all the money I've invested I'd rather leave the responsibility to the people who are interested and motivated, which in my case is just me.

I don't mean to discourage but make sure they know what they are getting into if you go down this route.

Having said all that, I'd recommend you keep things simple.

1)You don't need sugar/vodka to cycle the tank, I'm pretty sure it is only meant to help feed corals.
2)I personally wouldn't understock on liverock unless you have big fish/fish that need room to swim. (My reasoning: the more rock, the more biological filtration)
3) I'd recommend against tap water especially if your not going to do alot of live rock. There wil be an initial algae bloom and the tap water will make it worse.
4)In a 55 the mentioned items are not a good substitute for a skimmer. They don't work the same way. The wet/dry filter and canister have the potential to be huge detritis deposits and without a skimmer your nitrates will go sky high.

I would modify the wet/dry into a sump and use the canister for flow. I'd also add some powerheads and a skimmer. Leave the main filtration up to your sandbed and rockwork. Only use the canister as a means of trapping large waste particles and to house some carbon.

5) Feeding, 2.5 weeks is too long of a wait to feed your fish, especially if they are small and have a high metabolism (active swimmers) You can space the feedings out. The longest i've ever let my BIG fish go was 5-6 days but they were always well-fed and healthy beforehand.

I hope this helps, Good luck!

-David

Thanks for the feedback. I've been lecturing family about the tank for a month, so i do think they understand the importance of not overfeeding and routine water changes, like they've been doing to some of my FW tanks. i do trust them on my freshwater tanks. I guess they need to be careful about salt now.

And yes, I have plenty of maxi power heads from my freshwater tanks. are they suitable for salt because they are my like "pumps" than a koralia (shots water like a water gun rather than stir)?

What is a "good" deal for liverock? 2/lb or less? Is there any problem with adding liverock to the tank say, in a few months after it was already cycled?

Will Natural seawater help cycle? Rephrase, will anything help cycle the tanks faster?

By mod. wet/dry into sump, do you mean take out the bio-media (bio-balls) and put live sand and macro algae? or as in have the wetdry flow into a sump?

I have a few Penguin 200 bio wheel filters and a Vortex diatom filter lying around. are they of any use?

Ok, I've done lab work on volitans and they survived without food for a month at a time. But i wasn't sure about antennata, but i heard they are very hardy. Anyhow, I'm worried about someone feeding the fish and getting stun, so can i have the fish sitter feed just once or twice in those 2.5 week spans and lower the temperature a tad bit?

 

[eatmorelionfish]

"DIY nitrate/algae filter (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...ight=algae+diy) substitute a protein skimmer?"

I was actually going to do this... only problem is that you can only clean one side at a time to keep it going... also heard of green water from this type of setup... so i would probably do this with a skimmer..

Also does anyone know what the difference is from that setup and a refugium? seems the same just a difference in surface area..

-"if" i don't have a protein skimmer for say a few months, shouldn't this filter (if i get it up an running like other members did) plus my Vortex diatom filter take care of most of my tap water issues? I've read a few members on other sites who have taken their skimmer out.

I've been reading that massive thread, as well as the one on aquariacentral.com, which is more saltwater. You can put it into your sump, but the algae screen cannot be submerged underwater. more like a waterfall than a river, if that makes any sense.

 

[JayM]

this is a recipe for failure/disaster.

Also, a lionfish will not survive for weeks without food, especially if the school decides to shut down the heat for a few weeks while the dorm is empty

 

[biggyclops]

-"if" i don't have a protein skimmer for say a few months, shouldn't this filter (if i get it up an running like other members did) plus my Vortex diatom filter take care of most of my tap water issues? I've read a few members on other sites who have taken their skimmer out.

I've been reading that massive thread, as well as the one on aquariacentral.com, which is more saltwater. You can put it into your sump, but the algae screen cannot be submerged underwater. more like a waterfall than a river, if that makes any sense.

i would read up on algae scrubbers and see what you think... it would be cool to do a nano with that type of setup just to have bragging rights on brs! i have read a bit on the subject... the only thing that freaked me out was the green water.. but i think it was because of the scale of the setup.. might work pretty well on a cycling tank especially when you have high nitrates (algae food)...

 

[eatmorelionfish]

this is a recipe for failure/disaster.

Also, a lionfish will not survive for weeks without food, especially if the school decides to shut down the heat for a few weeks while the dorm is empty

could you elaborate? ive actually been feeling optimistic, with parents and sibling watching the tank everyday (what i meant by not having too much time is they don't have enough time to say breed the clown and quarantine new fish while testing for nitrate everyday). Tank at home will be maintained with weekly water changes and fish would be fed properly. It'll be a bit understocked, and no new fish added to tank while I'm gone.

Well, there's still people living in the dorms over break (infact, year round), and heat and electricity is never shut off, unless there's a power outage. I've had fish sitters come in for my freshwater tanks in the past and never lost a fish. I can get someone to feed the lionfish every few days, but i realized they can just feed live glass shrimp rather than wiggle a silverside around to pretend its alive and risk getting stun. From what I've learned, the lionfish will survive. And yes, Pterois volitans, when mature will be able to survive weeks without food. Again, not sure how antennate will hold up, but learned they are one of the hardier lionfish out there.

I'm just trying to deny my fears right now. but please, insightful criticism is good so i can plan for it.

 

[The Ng Thing]

Now that I can click the link and actually see it, I'd like to rephrase my recommendations lol.... that may work in substitute for a skimmer. I wanted to try the algae scrubber myself. I should've recognized the link!

1)The wet/dry you can run it with bio-balls but they tend to accumulate a lot of junk over time. I would personally change it into a sump with live rock/sand/macro algae just as an insurance measure for biological filtration. You could even combine the algae turf scrubber into the wet/dry system (Is this what you meant originally? Sorry if I misinterpretted)

2) For cycling faster, I would use established sand with established live rock. I'm not sure if it was entirely the best way to go because I don't read about people doing it my way. I used sand from an established tank and I bought about 70% of my rock already encrusted with purple coralline. The same goes with saltwater...if you know someone you could basically use their tank water to fill up your tank when they do a water change (assuming they have ideal water conditions)

Note: For live rock $2/lb is pretty cheap. Most local stores sell it upwards of +$6/pound.

3) For the powerheads "shoots water like a water gun rather than stir" answers the question right away. They both provide flow but the manner in which they do it is different. I've used both but koralia's provide more turbulent flow in a wider stream, which is desired. The new ones I believe also use less power.

4) If your worried about someone getting stunned you can have them feed live fish. In my opinion they do the job for you, you drop them in and the lion hunts them down. Feeding once or twice in 2.5 weeks is better then not at all. When you say temperature lowering do you mean slowing down their metabolism? I'm not sure if benefits outweigh the consequences. I think the temperature needed to significantly slower their metabolism will cause them more stress on top of not eating a whole lot. I've done it with goldfish but not with saltwater. I would be a little weary of going down that road.

-David


P.S. it looks like the feeding thing has been addressed, I'm just too slow of a typer

 

[biggyclops]

to be honest.. i agree with jay... knowing what i know now... there is no way in H@ll that i would keep a salt water tank in college.... i couldn't remember where i parked my car in college nevermind a tank! if it was me... and i REALLY wanted a tank.. i think i would do a fw tank in college..

 

[eatmorelionfish]

i would read up on algae scrubbers and see what you think... it would be cool to do a nano with that type of setup just to have bragging rights on brs! i have read a bit on the subject... the only thing that freaked me out was the green water.. but i think it was because of the scale of the setup.. might work pretty well on a cycling tank especially when you have high nitrates (algae food)...

I'm actually going to build one. seems like to work well if you have a "seeded" turf screen at the beginning, which i don't since my tank is waterless at the moment. I'm not sure how loud the thing is, though one guy claims is silent.

where did you see the green water? i didn't seen it in the forums and searching "green water" gives me too many hits...

 

[The Ng Thing]

I sorta agree too. I'm in my junior year of college and with classses/job a nano is just enough for me. (The planted doesn't count cause fw is for noobies =P) If I did a 55 gallon saltwater it wouldn't be pretty. Then again that is me. If your family is willing to learn/help out/enjoy the tank I'd go for it.

My father raised all types of fish in college. From what my mother tells me (and he denies it) he was just as obsessed as I am. After college he quit and moved onto other things. Once I got into the hobby I tried to convince him to start a tank with me but he always says no, he doesn't want fish. Initially he could care less but lately he's been asking questions and has become really fascinated with the systems I'm keeping, even to the point where he wants to help feed my cichlids frozen pinkies.

You never know, you may inspire your family and actually recruit some more hobbyists. I would just recommend you start off modestly and don't put any more responsibility on your family then they are willing to take. I don't want to keep reiterating things people have already said ...just my two cents! =)


The algae scrubber shouldn't be loud at all if the water is allowed to run over the screen properly and provided it doesn't waterfall back into its container. The green water may be the inital alage bloom to get it going. Before it can grow onto the screen it has to circulate through everything. The impression I got from the setup is that it gets worse before things get better. I'll try to find an example of what I'm talking about ..

 

[eatmorelionfish]

i hear you. i sold all my fish and plants and driftwood a bit to early, but i had to since i was going to the Caribbean for 3months to do field research for lionfish actually, which has transformed me to a saltwater type.

 

[The Ng Thing]

Here's where I was reading up on it:

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68

They mention "yellow water" but only as a result of cleaning the scrubber in your tank letting loose strains of algae into your tank. In the long run it should actually choke out any free floating algae.

The site also addresses the noise issue. If it's built properly it should be silent.

 

[biggyclops]

IIRC the green water problem was from a public aquarium