"Old Tank syndrome" and sandbed collapse

[Greg Hiller]

I had one unexplained episode with my 110 gallon system years ago. It had been doing well for many years, then there was a patch of time when things did not grow well, and some new things when introduced did not do well. I never figured out exactly what the problem was, but it kind of went away without me doing all that much.

I think that it (obviously) is pretty important to keep up with things and never let maintenance of a tank go too long. I think there is no question that sand beds can accumulate a lot of muck, but I don't buy the idea that they fill to some level then all at once your tank crashes. I maintain that a lot of supposed 'tank crashes' are due to clearly definable problems that have in many cases simple solutions. I think one of the biggest problems is loss of circulation at night killing a lot of fish.

I also don't buy the idea that changing out a portion of your sand bed is somehow something you should never do (Ron Shimek).

 

[TomD]

I had one unexplained episode with my 110 gallon system years ago. It had been doing well for many years, then there was a patch of time when things did not grow well, and some new things when introduced did not do well. I never figured out exactly what the problem was, but it kind of went away without me doing all that much.

I think that it (obviously) is pretty important to keep up with things and never let maintenance of a tank go too long. I think there is no question that sand beds can accumulate a lot of muck, but I don't buy the idea that they fill to some level then all at once your tank crashes. I maintain that a lot of supposed 'tank crashes' are due to clearly definable problems that have in many cases simple solutions. I think one of the biggest problems is loss of circulation at night killing a lot of fish.

I also don't buy the idea that changing out a portion of your sand bed is somehow something you should never do (Ron Shimek).

I agree, at least imo, that a lot of these instances (not all) are due to a problem that the tank owner may not be aware of.

Greg, have you ever, or do you now change out portions of your sandbed after so long?

 

[Greg Hiller]

I've not changed out any of the sand in my 400 G, but it's only been up for about 1 1/2 years. I did sometimes remove and replace a bit of the sand in my old 110.

 

[TomD]

Were you nervous doing that? I don't know how combfortable I feel disturbing my sand bed. Obviously you must have done a small amount at a time right?

 

[Aquaman_68]

Good point with the LR. I do think that having too much to the point of low flow through will speed this problem up. I keep a real open rock structure for that reason.

Brian, how do you experience this with your tank when you say it does exist?

I think I'm having an old tank issue in my system....Been going on for about 9 months....This 155 bow has been been active for over 4 years & half of the sand in it is close to 8 years old. I do water changes weekly & it doesn't seem to be correcting itself. I'm maintaining but every little shift in any parameter I have to deal with issues...Nothing major....Overall my tank looks good to me but I'm never happy!! Most people who come to see it who I don't really know & they are very impressed. sometimes they tell me & sometimes they don't & I hear it from another reefer that they were commenting on my system & livestock color of corals etc...(in a positive way)

Now Ed comes over from time to time & also hears me complain weekly...Everytime he comes he says "tank looks awesome...what are you talking about?"

Overall my tank is pretty clean except for the growth that grows on the glass every 4 days or so. (may be some diatoms..as it looks) some areas of the sand that are dirty but that is in low flow areas...But lately the sand is getting a mucky appearence in some areas.......I've been planning to remove some sand but from cleaning over the 4 years I've already removed a good portion.....So I'm going to get some livesand in next week...See if that gives this sandbed a little more life!! (which I think degrades over time due to toxic issues beyond our control)

HTH & has answered your question, Tom...
B

 

[TomD]

Thanks Brian, did answer my question. Hope the sand issue works out for you.

As a side question out of interest, is this also why you are interested in testing for organics? Try to keep a check on what your tank is breaking down etc?

 

[Aquaman_68]

Thanks Brian, did answer my question. Hope the sand issue works out for you.

As a side question out of interest, is this also why you are interested in testing for organics? Try to keep a check on what your tank is breaking down etc?

YEP

 

[Yaktop]

Now Ed comes over from time to time & also hears me complain weekly...Everytime he comes he says "tank looks awesome...what are you talking about?"
B

how about daily

 

[Aquaman_68]

bite me......Hey BTW...what are you? cattle?

 

[Calciumbuf]

I know this is a little off topic but I have always been suspect to the pollen in the air at this time of year, I have also read several articals on the great barrier reefs were mass bleaching events have been tied to dust in the air from a forestry project going on some 4000 miles away given favorable wind direction. I live in an area were there are several oaks, maple's and ash all around me and have always experienced unexplainable algea at this time of year.

 

[TomD]

I know this is a little off topic but I have always been suspect to the pollen in the air at this time of year, I have also read several articals on the great barrier reefs were mass bleaching events have been tied to dust in the air from a forestry project going on some 4000 miles away given favorable wind direction. I live in an area were there are several oaks, maple's and ash all around me and have always experienced unexplainable algea at this time of year.

Interesting either way.

 

[Aquaman_68]

I know this is a little off topic but I have always been suspect to the pollen in the air at this time of year, I have also read several articals on the great barrier reefs were mass bleaching events have been tied to dust in the air from a forestry project going on some 4000 miles away given favorable wind direction. I live in an area were there are several oaks, maple's and ash all around me and have always experienced unexplainable algea at this time of year.

I've read that before as well Jim.....The way to know if there is a relation is if it happens around the same time or close to it!! I know I deal with issues from my water supply at certain times of the year due to the crap they put in to keep down algae & bacteria. You wouldn't have to worry about that with your well & all!! But than again......you have other things that you may have to deal with that us city water users wouldn't really know about. Like heavy metals & the quick exaustion of your filters due to it. I still would like to see the difference sometime long term...(by using well water)But that is going to be impossible...I've always been suspect of the water supply I use since they went to chloramines....I've been dealing with unexplained issues here & there since & have also struggled with keeping my orp level over 400mv. (405 is a nice target I would like to keep but I only hover around 380mv or so.....)

 

[Greg Hiller]

Interesting about the pollen. Actually I end up with a lot of small flies in my sump this time of year. The lights attract them in the basement and they end up 'a floatin'. It's funny, the other day in my frag tank I saw a LPS sucking a fly in!

Another I realize slightly off topic regarding stuff coming in...it's fairly well documented now that the disease that sometimes affects seafans in the Atlantic is due to mold spore that blow in with dust from Africa.

Regarding being nervous about changing the sand. I think siphoning out is pretty easy to do, and I don't think there is much risk to this as long as you don't stir a lot of stuff up. You DON'T want to scoop it up. Adding new sand can be tricky. I usually make sure it is really well rinsed (a pain in the bum for the old Southdown), then I attempt to pack it into a cup. I stop the water flow and then gently take the cup to the bottom of the tank and flip it quickly, then slowly let it out. I don't add too much at once, and am careful about not ending up with a lot of suspended dust.

 

[Aquaman_68]

Interesting about the pollen. Actually I end up with a lot of small flies in my sump this time of year. The lights attract them in the basement and they end up 'a floatin'. It's funny, the other day in my frag tank I saw a LPS sucking a fly in!

Another I realize slightly off topic regarding stuff coming in...it's fairly well documented now that the disease that sometimes affects seafans in the Atlantic is due to mold spore that blow in with dust from Africa.

Regarding being nervous about changing the sand. I think siphoning out is pretty easy to do, and I don't think there is much risk to this as long as you don't stir a lot of stuff up. You DON'T want to scoop it up. Adding new sand can be tricky. I usually make sure it is really well rinsed (a pain in the bum for the old Southdown), then I attempt to pack it into a cup. I stop the water flow and then gently take the cup to the bottom of the tank and flip it quickly, then slowly let it out. I don't add too much at once, and am careful about not ending up with a lot of suspended dust.

Good trick to adding sand as well!! (well..live sand...) Get a 4 inch or 3 inch PVC cut it long enough to stick out of the water of the tank & be tight into the existing sandbed. Use a measuring cup to scoop it (make sure it is wet & strained of the water first) & pour it in the tube. Wait about 15mins to a half an hour for the sand to settle & carefully raise the tube a little at a time & release a portion of the new sand from the tube..Takes a little time & patience but it can make for a very clean transition into the new sandbed. you create!!! I'm getting mine ready!!! It's been over 4 years since I've done this. I'm way overdue!!

 

[Calciumbuf]

It may be that air quality is just as important as water quality.

 

[TomD]

Good trick to adding sand as well!! (well..live sand...) Get a 4 inch or 3 inch PVC cut it long enough to stick out of the water of the tank & be tight into the existing sandbed. Use a measuring cup to scoop it (make sure it is wet & strained of the water first) & pour it in the tube. Wait about 15mins to a half an hour for the sand to settle & carefully raise the tube a little at a time & release a portion of the new sand from the tube..Takes a little time & patience but it can make for a very clean transition into the new sandbed. you create!!! I'm getting mine ready!!! It's been over 4 years since I've done this. I'm way overdue!!

Question for both Brian and Greg: After how long would you recommend doing this? Is it hard to say, just have to get a feel for it, or say every 4-5 years change out % of sand-bed.

Brian, why just live sand? If we are only doing a small portion, we would not kill enough beneficial bacteria so wouldn't it be ok to add dry sand?

 

[Greg Hiller]

>Question for both Brian and Greg: After how long would you recommend doing this? Is it hard to say, just have to get a feel for it, or say every 4-5 years change out % of sand-bed.<

I think it depends on the tank. If you are getting growth of cyano on the sand a lot, and it looks really discolored on the glass it might be time. Also, if you siphon a bit out and it looks like a real mess, then it probably is time. I suppose as a ball park guess I'd say remove 10-20% every year starting after 3-5 years in operation. If you have a sand sifting goby you might not need to change any.

Nice trick on the sand Brian.

 

[smcnally]

Brian, are you sure you're experiencing Old Tank Syndrome and not OCD?

 

[Aquaman_68]

Brian, are you sure you're experiencing Old Tank Syndrome and not OCD?

Both!!!..funny you say it!!!I've heard that often

Question for both Brian and Greg: After how long would you recommend doing this? Is it hard to say, just have to get a feel for it, or say every 4-5 years change out % of sand-bed.

Brian, why just live sand? If we are only doing a small portion, we would not kill enough beneficial bacteria so wouldn't it be ok to add dry sand?

Greg nailed the first question perfect with one exception on time frame....If you've done a beginner goof like most of us have in the early past (& sometimes some still do because of negligence or procrastinating on maintenance!!!) ie:
1) add too much two part suppliment because you seen that it has dropped very low due to not keeping up on checking params
2) add two much mag suppliment/ epsom salt/ to boost it up quick
3) nuked your tank with ozone because your orp probe was off & you pretty much sterilized your tanks sandbed & the system in general.
4)Or even cranked up the calcium reactor too much to bring up a low alk you didn't know was slowly dropping due to intake.

All these things precipitate into the sandbed & can cause you to pretty much kill off the live goodies in the sand due to toxic levels becoming too high.
as far as live sand.....Very benificial..loaded with tons of pods critters & beneficial bacteria strains that you may have killed off in an ill attemp to bring low params up quick!!!

Nice trick on the sand Brian.

Thanks!

 

[Dragon2115]

I just started in sw around eight months ago so I don't know all the ins and outs yet but I've been doing fw for over 20 years and those tanks can supposedly get "OTS" as well. I have never run into it in one of my tanks though. Maybe it's due to the way I clean the tank. Every now and then I do a cleaning of the sand bed. I use one of the clear plastic siphons you see in all the stores. What I do is put the siphon in the sand and suck up a column of it. Then before it can be pulled into the hose I stop the flow and let the column of sand collapse back down. I then restart the flow and pull all the nasty water and stuff that's been liberated from the sand out of the tank. This probably accomplishes the same thing as stirring but without allowing what you stirred up to circulate throughout the tank. Does this take out some of the bacteria in the sand bed, sure, but it doesn't wipe it out. That would be impossible. I also don't clean everywhere, just the sandy areas that are out in the open. So far this has worked for my fw tanks. Time will tell if it works with my sw tanks too.