Ques. (Question of the Day) Controller or no controller

[Cpage101]

While I’m sure there are some malfunctions absolutely, nothing works 100%. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if the apex is installed correctly and programmed with failsafes, even with some malfunctions the system has failsafes to prevent catastrophe. I had an apex brain malfunction under warranty a few years ago and with the malfunction the systems fail safes ie only pumps running for xxxx seconds before shutting down still worked. With that being said I do have wet sensors and manual backup floats to prevent catastrophe.

While the apex is just a tool that can fail, I don’t think everyone fully understands its capabilities and fails to put these failsafes in the programming when installing it on there tanks.

It’s a great tool that can make reefing much easier than it was 5, 10, 15 years ago

love my apex but you need to have fail safes in your programs been running mine for 10+ years. most issues are user error IME

 

[wdebenedettojr]

love my apex but you need to have fail safes in your programs been running mine for 10+ years. most issues are user error IME

I couldn’t agree.

From looking at other forums it’s clear most of the time fail safes and proper programming could have prevented the catastrophe but people are quick to blame the apex itself. Remember the apex is essentially a computer, the computer is only as good as the person entering the information into it

 

[BiGGiePauls33]

I couldn’t agree.

From looking at other forums it’s clear most of the time fail safes and proper programming could have prevented the catastrophe but people are quick to blame the apex itself. Remember the apex is essentially a computer, the computer is only as good as the person entering the information into it

Although I'm not a fan of their products, yourself and @Cpage101 hit the nail on the head with programming and fail-safes. From what I've seen, the marketing for them is buy this product, have a great looking and healthy reef. Not saying I'm an industry person, far from it, but the the information I have received on them is a bit too much for my liking to say the least.

 

[Cpage101]

The new hydros launch looks like a great entry level controller. if I did it today and I could not have the old apex EB8 and EB4 plug bars I would defiantly go with hydros or GHL depending on my budget. The Neptune EB832’s don’t give me the warm and fuzzies

 

[Kens Bees]

I don’t have a basement sink so the only way to do water changes was to schlep buckets up to the kitchen, or automate and drain directly to the stack. I use a GHL with a maxi Doser for one tank and knock off tunze ato pumps for the other. Expensive for sure, but other than user error it’s been flawless. Oh, and it records silly stuff like ph and temp, etc.

 

[dz6t]

The malfunctions I was referring to were hardware failures, for example a computer board fried due to internal leaking inside a Trident. I also have several customers that replaced their APEX brains multiple times in a year. These all happened to the current style of APEX, the older ones are much more solid.
When hardwares are not reliable, no programming can help.

 

[BiGGiePauls33]

The malfunctions I was referring to were hardware failures, for example a computer board fried due to internal leaking inside a Trident. I also have several customers that replaced their APEX brains multiple times in a year. These all happened to the current style of APEX, the older ones are much more solid.
When hardwares are not reliable, no programming can help.

Dong, the best is the $.02 capacitor on their eb832 bars that seem to pop all the time.

 

[ChrisPchef]

I like Jake Adam’s opinion on this question




Starts at 1:25:09
Explanation ends at 1:39:17

 

[wdebenedettojr]

I like Jake Adam’s opinion on this question




Starts at 1:25:09
Explanation ends at 1:39:17

So while I appreciate what Jake Adams did for the hobby I think he is off base a bit.

It seems his gripe here is more with the cost of the units vs the actual usability and how it enables people to maintain tanks much easier. He talks about how a controller is not necessary (which I agree it is not necessary) but then he talks about all the smart pumps and smart outlets/power strips etc that he can use to do the same thing. He is right, using those smart outlets kinda is a poor man’s apex. I used smart outlets to control my mixing station before I ran an extra eb8 downstairs and it worked. However when I got the eb8 downstairs it allows for leak detection among other things all from one source rather than having to use multiple apps to control things. A controller is not for someone on a tight budget. As everyone knows this hobby is not a cheap hobby. I do think he makes good points about how some of the add ons for the controllers are to expensive but again not a cheap hobby; a controller is a luxury.

He eludes to a big coral farmer or whoever having a huge crash and simply is trying to put the blame on the apex when he even says per the programming they used the apex thought it was fine. Again this goes back to what I said above that if programmed properly this system could have stopped the issue. A controller is only as good as people entering the information. I don’t know what the issue was in that situation but per his own words he states that the programming that person had didn’t catch the issue.

When I maintained tanks for years majority of people wanted these devices bc it made their lives easier. That’s the purpose of a controller, to make your life easier. While a controller is not necessary for a successful tank I disagree with him when he says a controller doesn’t make your tank better. For someone like Jake who is taking time out of every day to test or check there tank a controller might not be needed. But the average person out there that gets busy with life or work and can’t put attention on there tank for a week or so a controller allows that grace period.

The last thing i will disagree with him is when he says that they are hard to program. I only know apex so I can’t comment on the ghl controllers or the new hydros but there are more simple then ever to control thanks to the task menu within the apex, it simply walks you through exactly what you want and it programs for you. That video is from a few years ago and I believe the tasks menu for programming was a thing at the time the video was recorded.

 

[ChrisPchef]

So while I appreciate what Jake Adams did for the hobby I think he is off base a bit.

It seems his gripe here is more with the cost of the units vs the actual usability and how it enables people to maintain tanks much easier. He talks about how a controller is not necessary (which I agree it is not necessary) but then he talks about all the smart pumps and smart outlets/power strips etc that he can use to do the same thing. He is right, using those smart outlets kinda is a poor man’s apex. I used smart outlets to control my mixing station before I ran an extra eb8 downstairs and it worked. However when I got the eb8 downstairs it allows for leak detection among other things all from one source rather than having to use multiple apps to control things. A controller is not for someone on a tight budget. As everyone knows this hobby is not a cheap hobby. I do think he makes good points about how some of the add ons for the controllers are to expensive but again not a cheap hobby; a controller is a luxury.

He eludes to a big coral farmer or whoever having a huge crash and simply is trying to put the blame on the apex when he even says per the programming they used the apex thought it was fine. Again this goes back to what I said above that if programmed properly this system could have stopped the issue. A controller is only as good as people entering the information. I don’t know what the issue was in that situation but per his own words he states that the programming that person had didn’t catch the issue.

When I maintained tanks for years majority of people wanted these devices bc it made their lives easier. That’s the purpose of a controller, to make your life easier. While a controller is not necessary for a successful tank I disagree with him when he says a controller doesn’t make your tank better. For someone like Jake who is taking time out of every day to test or check there tank a controller might not be needed. But the average person out there that gets busy with life or work and can’t put attention on there tank for a week or so a controller allows that grace period.

The last thing i will disagree with him is when he says that they are hard to program. I only know apex so I can’t comment on the ghl controllers or the new hydros but there are more simple then ever to control thanks to the task menu within the apex, it simply walks you through exactly what you want and it programs for you. That video is from a few years ago and I believe the tasks menu for programming was a thing at the time the video was recorded.

As Jake mentions in the interview he could have talked about controllers and PH for literal weeks. What I took from his 15+ minute explanation is this. He talks about the same technology being in place since the 90’s. Before the Apex, there was the aqua controller Jr, and before that it was about the octopus Aquadime. Which does everything the Apex does today. Saying “it would even send you a message on your pager” talking about how there has been no progress. “Consumer electronics have gotten faster, better, smaller, and cheaper. Meanwhile in the aquarium hobby it has gotten more expensive, harder to use, and more expansive”

I linked the video and said I like his response because both him and the host talk about being in control. How they like seeing the consumption of different elements. Working to address the consumption and address the issue at hand. Seeing what is actually going on in their underwater ecosystem. Then going on to address the issue, stating they are the controller. He talks about similar to breeding fish, controllers are there own hobby.

The host agrees talking about you really can spend hours going down the rabbit hole. Dialing in and programming your controller to do exactly what they’re intended to do. They’re not knocking anyone using a controller, talking about how their tanks look good. But if you talk to them they’ll spend hours in their “control centers” talking about this and that, going on and on. Never once mentioning a coral or fish within their system.

Jake talks about getting so many notifications from the controller that he notices people turning off the notifications. Which in return turns into a problem. Talking about people spending money on a tank, lights, sump and then dumping thousands of dollars into a controller. I couldn’t agree more with him when he talks about it being a different hobby.

Instead of manually testing your water and responding with the correct solution (learning along the way) people spend hours learning how to program controllers and go down the rabbit hole which is a different hobby. Again similar to seahorse tanks & breeding fish, they’re totally different hobbies than reef keeping. Jake talks about there being almost an inverse correlation between the quality of the tank and running a controller. He talks about there are very few use cases where a controller is necessary. Talking about the controller actually benefiting the tank as opposed to hindering the tanks progress.

As stated here previously in the comments. Jake talks about major issues going on within a tank. Where the tank owner never received the notification. “If it’s sending you alerts for a bunch of different stuff, then you will probably turn those off”

“It’s not that the controller wasn’t working it’s a combination between the controller and user error” which was previously mentioned by BRS members here in the comments

Jake mentions you should set up your reef tank to fail without issue. Saying your controller can’t do that for you. Talking about people spending so much of their energy learning how to use the controller. They get all this “if this, then that. That they’re so proud of it.” That at the end of the day they do not have a better reef tank.

I really didn’t pay attention to the price tags he mentioned throughout the explanation. I couldn’t agree more with him feeling as if controllers are not necessity. That if anything they hinder a reefers progress rather than help. At one point in the interview he’s asked something along the lines of “what would you tell a nooby trying to get into the hobby?” Recommending them to stay off the internet, that there is too much useless confusing information out there. Proceeding to say he could write what is really necessity information wise, in the hobby down on one side of an index card. Talking about this excess of information is not necessary and most times will only confuse or misinform a new reefer.

I think controllers and a lot of other technology used today on our tanks isn’t necessity. Companies do not go into business to lose money. The newest and brightest technology for our tanks is not needed to help, rather to help the companies make profit.

This concept has been talked about with I believe radion. Saying the lights hardly change generation to generation. That upgrades are actually held back. There are always people willing to buy the newest greatest product just for these upgrades. Which really only benefit the company’s profits. Similar to what Jake is mentioning, saying these controllers have been around since the 90’s. That they really haven’t changed much, just becoming smaller and harder to use. Which once again goes against reef keeping.

 

[EddieG]

Only use an inkbird temp controller for heaters. Reduncy, so I don’t cook fish if a heater malfunctions.
I do weekly water changes.

 

[Cpage101]

As Jake mentions in the interview he could have talked about controllers and PH for literal weeks. What I took from his 15+ minute explanation is this. He talks about the same technology being in place since the 90’s. Before the Apex, there was the aqua controller Jr, and before that it was about the octopus Aquadime. Which does everything the Apex does today. Saying “it would even send you a message on your pager” talking about how there has been no progress. “Consumer electronics have gotten faster, better, smaller, and cheaper. Meanwhile in the aquarium hobby it has gotten more expensive, harder to use, and more expansive”

I linked the video and said I like his response because both him and the host talk about being in control. How they like seeing the consumption of different elements. Working to address the consumption and address the issue at hand. Seeing what is actually going on in their underwater ecosystem. Then going on to address the issue, stating they are the controller. He talks about similar to breeding fish, controllers are there own hobby.

The host agrees talking about you really can spend hours going down the rabbit hole. Dialing in and programming your controller to do exactly what they’re intended to do. They’re not knocking anyone using a controller, talking about how their tanks look good. But if you talk to them they’ll spend hours in their “control centers” talking about this and that, going on and on. Never once mentioning a coral or fish within their system.

Jake talks about getting so many notifications from the controller that he notices people turning off the notifications. Which in return turns into a problem. Talking about people spending money on a tank, lights, sump and then dumping thousands of dollars into a controller. I couldn’t agree more with him when he talks about it being a different hobby.

Instead of manually testing your water and responding with the correct solution (learning along the way) people spend hours learning how to program controllers and go down the rabbit hole which is a different hobby. Again similar to seahorse tanks & breeding fish, they’re totally different hobbies than reef keeping. Jake talks about there being almost an inverse correlation between the quality of the tank and running a controller. He talks about there are very few use cases where a controller is necessary. Talking about the controller actually benefiting the tank as opposed to hindering the tanks progress.

As stated here previously in the comments. Jake talks about major issues going on within a tank. Where the tank owner never received the notification. “If it’s sending you alerts for a bunch of different stuff, then you will probably turn those off”

“It’s not that the controller wasn’t working it’s a combination between the controller and user error” which was previously mentioned by BRS members here in the comments

Jake mentions you should set up your reef tank to fail without issue. Saying your controller can’t do that for you. Talking about people spending so much of their energy learning how to use the controller. They get all this “if this, then that. That they’re so proud of it.” That at the end of the day they do not have a better reef tank.

I really didn’t pay attention to the price tags he mentioned throughout the explanation. I couldn’t agree more with him feeling as if controllers are not necessity. That if anything they hinder a reefers progress rather than help. At one point in the interview he’s asked something along the lines of “what would you tell a nooby trying to get into the hobby?” Recommending them to stay off the internet, that there is too much useless confusing information out there. Proceeding to say he could write what is really necessity information wise, in the hobby down on one side of an index card. Talking about this excess of information is not necessary and most times will only confuse or misinform a new reefer.

I think controllers and a lot of other technology used today on our tanks isn’t necessity. Companies do not go into business to lose money. The newest and brightest technology for our tanks is not needed to help, rather to help the companies make profit.

This concept has been talked about with I believe radion. Saying the lights hardly change generation to generation. That upgrades are actually held back. There are always people willing to buy the newest greatest product just for these upgrades. Which really only benefit the company’s profits. Similar to what Jake is mentioning, saying these controllers have been around since the 90’s. That they really haven’t changed much, just becoming smaller and harder to use. Which once again goes against reef keeping.

So my thoughts on this is a controller convo it is not necessary as you and jake have stated. I think new hobbiests should spend 2-3 years learning to run their system testing, water changes and learning what it takes for a tank to run successfully and stably before they jump into the controller world. I ran my system for 5 years before I bought used apex classic. now I have 23 modules on my system doing everything form automated mixing station auto RODI operation whim my RODI gets down 4 gallos to fully controlling (2) tanks. I don’t think people just entering the hobby should spend this money up front as it seems to be the blame for being unsuccessful on controllers. You need to be able to succeed without a controller before you can succeed with one. Also most hobbiests end up getting out in 12-18 months time so find out if you want to stay in the game before dropping 1000’s of $$ on expensive controller. MFG’s don’t care if you quit it is about the bottom line for them. Smart reefers learn without first then they can be successful with or without. Great conversation here.

 

[ChrisPchef]

So my thoughts on this is a controller convo it is not necessary as you and jake have stated. I think new hobbiests should spend 2-3 years learning to run their system testing, water changes and learning what it takes for a tank to run successfully and stably before they jump into the controller world. I ran my system for 5 years before I bought used apex classic. now I have 23 modules on my system doing everything form automated mixing station auto RODI operation whim my RODI gets down 4 gallos to fully controlling (2) tanks. I don’t think people just entering the hobby should spend this money up front as it seems to be the blame for being unsuccessful on controllers. You need to be able to succeed without a controller before you can succeed with one. Also most hobbiests end up getting out in 12-18 months time so find out if you want to stay in the game before dropping 1000’s of $$ on expensive controller. MFG’s don’t care if you quit it is about the bottom line for them. Smart reefers learn without first then they can be successful with or without. Great conversation here.

I think that is very well said. Like Jake Adam’s said you should set up your system to fail without issue. Thanks for the input.