heniochus help

[NateHanson]

I've had a small pair of schooling bannerfish for about a month, and they've been doing very well, but about two days ago I noticed one of them had a chunk of his tail fin missing, but otherwise was ok.

This morning all of a sudden he's mostly drifting around the tank, often upside down or on his side, and only occasionally swimming. Other fish are nipping him as he drifts into their territory, and his fins all look a bit frayed. Otherwise his coloration is good. No spots, fuzziness, etc. His breathing is a bit fast.

I removed him to a tupperware. With the thought that I'd put him in the fuge where he wouldn't get picked on.

Are there any possible treatments to save this guy? Or is he just fading from some collection-related poisoning or similar affliction.

At this point I'd be suprised if he made it, so I'd love to hear some advice on what I could try.

Thanks, Nate

 

[Kevin McG]

Nate I'm not sure what is going on with your fish but I also had one of those and he was doing great, eating swimming normal and everything. One morning after having him about a month he was under one of my rocks close to the sandbed dead. He showed no visible signs of stress and he wasn't getting picked on at all either.

Kind of a mystery to me

 

[wrassefan]

Nate, fwiw, I would pull the fish out and give it a chance to recover without being nipped. If it is floating around or drifting more than swimming,that's not a good sign. I have a 10 and a 30 gal if you need to borrow for a quarantine tank also. LMK

 

[NateHanson]

I've got him out in a large tupperware, which is plenty of room for him because he's motionless. He's breathing, and he'll twitch if you poke him, but that's it. His color is now fading quite a bit. I think this one's very likely a goner by afternoon.

Bummer. They were doing so well. The only thing I can imagine is that it's a collection issue.

 

[One Eye]

It sounds like a collection issue, like you said.
I haven't heard of any treatments or any succes with cyanide issues. I think once the fish is poisioned, that's it, it's just a matter of time. Sorry.

 

[NateHanson]

I sure hope the other one can avoid the same fate. He looks healthy now, but then again, so did the other one a few days ago.

 

[One Eye]

I'm sure you already know, but. It depends on the distance the fish was collected from the cyanide. The ones in the inner circle die immeadiatly, the ones that are still close, but not dead will wake up and live about a month or two, the ones on the outer edge are just stunned and swim slow enough to be easily caught, they usualy live.

 

[NateHanson]

And there he goes. B-bye little guy.

Collection poisoning is frustrating. I think I just paid some diver somewhere to kill a bunch of fish for me. I wish I could be more sure that I wasn't supporting cyanide collection.

 

[nunofs]

Sorry to hear, Nate... as you may remember, I had a very similar experience with a CBB not long ago. I agree, it's very frustrating because you're just powerless to do anything... and I also had that bad feeling that I was indirectly supporting cyanide collection practices

Nuno

 

[~Flighty~]

I've been thinking for a while about what we could do with our local sponcers and asking them to have net caught fish available. One hobbiest asking wouldn't do much, but brs as a group might convince some stores to add to their supplier list. I know the LFS are in a hard place because net caught fish aren't easilly available and you have to blindly trust the supplier that they are not just charging more for cyanide caught.

 

[NateHanson]

I totally agree cindy. Do you really think cyanide-catching is the norm though? I would have hoped that it was a minority of collection sites that used cyanide, and that we were just getting a few that sneak through. I had hoped that the intent by suppliers and LFS was to buy and sell non-cyanide fish? If that's not the case in general, then I feel even worse than I did before.

 

[~Flighty~]

I don't know. I think cyanide is the easy answer for anything mysterious that goes wrong. Look at the CBB that I then Nuno had. It died suddenly after being tanked what, 5 months? It could have been a brain anurism or some crazy thing.

I really think there should be honest discussion with the LFSs about this because we just don't know what they are being told by their suppliers and what choices in suppliers they have.

 

[Valexia]

FWIW when i have worked with suppliers and ordered from three of the major ones (back in my good ol' days of managment) I could never really believe what distributers were lying and what ones were honest with me about it. I used to stay away from "Sale" fish because of worries about it. Even now where i work is supposed to only recieve net caught fish (they told us they were only going thru distributers that recieved net caught, hence some of the pricing) but i still see fish that won't feed and fade and some that just up and die. I am with Flighty, it seems to be a great way to blame mysterious death. Stress causes horrible health issues, i just read an article about it in a TFH mag, and it was saying that just like people fish can stress to death very quickly just from shipping/aclimation.
I myself make sure fish have been at a store for a week before i bring them home, and longer if i can stand it (totally impatient when i stare at it constantly). To make sure its not overly freaked. Oh...and i take it home, and put it in a tank, i don't hang out and talk for ten hours at the fish store before going home lol, i have timed customers that have sat and chatted for hours while their fish is in the bag!!!!
Just my experiences, take it or leave it.

 

[JeremyR]

All suppliers say their fish are net caught.. all you have to go on is your gut, your built in BS detector, and how the fish do for you. This is a big ugly can of worms.. if you want to educate yourself on the subject, there is masses of info in the RDO industry forum. It's not like there is a hobbyist test kit for cyanide, and there isn't even one that the US gov't can employ at entry.

 

[NateHanson]

That's helpful Valexia. It was my guess that stores are typically told their fish are net caught, as you say. I don't really blame the LFS, but the whole system has a flaw that we as customers end up supporting and suffering from.

I certainly agree that shipping stress does bad things to fish, and many fish get sick or just up and die because of poor shipping conditions and stress, but I don't believe that's the case here. This fish was fine for three weeks in my tank.

I don't hold it against the store, but I wouldn't buy another heniochus from them. I suspect the particular site that their supplier is getting them from is not collecting them safely. These are aparently one of the hardier butterflies, so I don't think it's just this species in general. I think it must be something with the site they're coming from.

 

[Lourdes]

your built in BS detector, .

it's true , when I place my order's it's similar , I don't see everything in front of me I just go with my gut that they will arrive alive , accl. good, eat for me and be hardy I watch them for a few day's untill We feel they will thrive in customers tanks , Livestock is tough... sorry Nate RDO is a good place to see what's going on out here.

 

[NateHanson]

Thanks guys. It's good to hear your perspectives, since you vendors deal with these issues so much more often than the rest of us. I don't really know too much about the fish collection industry and practices, so I'm going to try to learn more. I'll check out RDO.

Maybe this would be a good subject for a guest speaker at a meeting? It would really complement the environmental mission of the club, which I think we should put more emphasis on.

 

[Aquadiva]

OK, I'll look the ignorant one (mainly because I am )

.....RDO?????

 

[Lourdes]

reefs dot org!!

 

[NateHanson]

No sign of the second one tonight. I think that's it for the pair.

I noticed last night that the remaining one a slightly frayed anal fin. All the fins on the first one were frayed too by the time he died. Seemed like they just fell apart as he died. Is that typical, or would it be a sign of a particular ailment. The fins looked totally fine otherwise, no residue, film, spots, of fuzz on them. Just the thin tissue missing from between the spines of the fins.