More Acro Flatworms!!

[Shallowwaters]

Wow, I'm glad I stopped in for my morning flat worm report. Thanks One Eye for your study on the topic. You might get an honorary degree from Scripps Institute. This could be a terrible epidemic in anybody's tank. Outstanding pics!

A three month QT would also effectively catch montipora-eating nudibranchs. They seem to be going around the Club too. And like FWs, there is no single good treatment - and, boy, once they mature, they can destroy a colony in just a few days.

Itelus, about the QT & dips before trading...how do you think our delicate creatures will handle all of the dips before and after trading? They are all pretty stressful, don't you think?

Maybe our resident sage, Greg Hiller, could recommended a trading procedure that we could possibly all agree to abide by as the 'Hiller QT Standard.'

 

[Liam]

Wow, I'm glad I stopped in for my morning flat worm report. Thanks One Eye for your study on the topic. You might get an honorary degree from Scripps Institute. This could be a terrible epidemic in anybody's tank. Outstanding pics!

A three month QT would also effectively catch montipora-eating nudibranchs. They seem to be going around the Club too. And like FWs, there is no single good treatment - and, boy, once they mature, they can destroy a colony in just a few days.

Itelus, about the QT & dips before trading...how do you think our delicate creatures will handle all of the dips before and after trading? They are all pretty stressful, don't you think?

Maybe our resident sage, Greg Hiller, could recommended a trading procedure that we could possibly all agree to abide by as the 'Hiller QT Standard.'

I agree Mr Hillers opinion would be very welcome.
As regards to the stress,what about the stress of watching all your acros being eaten

 

[Mike A]

I think if you go back and search through some past posts, you'll see some really good quarantine methods detailed by reefnroll (bec) and Lam.

In my opinion, even if you follow these methods, there is no guarantee it will prevent an infestation of these acro eating flatworms, as there is no effective preventive treatment currently available.

 

[One Eye]

In my opinion, even if you follow these methods, there is no guarantee it will prevent an infestation of these acro eating flatworms, as there is no effective preventive treatment currently available.

Thats it right there.
A 3 month qt won't even prevent them 100%, but in a 3 month period they should have matured (from whatever life stage) enough to start causing visible tissue damage to the coral in QT. Then you would know you have an infected coral and can either work to rid the pest or dispose of the coral.

 

[One Eye]

Also, to expect an lfs or online vendor to hold corals for 3 months is IMO not practical. These guys would have to dish out their money and sit on it for 90 days before even the possibility of a return. Again, just my oppinion but we are the ones who want to collect corals. We need to take on some of the responsibility ourselves, or cost of this hobby would skyrocket and exclude many, many people.

 

[Liam]

wow i did'nt realize they took 3 months to reach full size

 

[One Eye]

If you blast a coral whilst disenfecting will you only see adults Darren.

Liam, I blasted the LJ with a power head shortly before I fresh water dipped it. I didn't see any flatworms fly off the coral (until the dip). Again, the largest one I found was still just a toddler, maybe the larger flatworms have a harder time finding a large enough spot to hide and grip on?

BTW, my Spotted Mandarin love these flatworms, he's like me with a prime rib!!
I didn't leave him in the qt long, I want them to stay alive in there for a while to observe. But, he hit the water in the qt and made a b-line for the infected corals and started picking away! No acclimation time!
Matter of fact he looked a little pissed when I put him back in the main tank I think he flipped me the bird...in his own special way.

 

[One Eye]

Oh...I don't know for a fact that it takes 3 months for them to reach full size, matter of fact it may take longer. But at 3 months they should cause visible damage and be somewhat visible themselves. As visible as a purposely invisible creature can be....

 

[One Eye]

Greg doesn't take in trades for a reason! He's smarter than the rest of us!

 

[Aquaman_68]

For about 10 months now I've been dipping all my new acquired corals & inspecting the bases for eggs & tissue recession. I've seen these little ba$tards first hand on an infected coral. (I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR!!!! IT WAS NOT IN MY TANK NOR ON ANY OF MY CORALS) The coral that was infected wasn't in a sps system either. It was the only sps in the system. An experiment was done with a healthy milli frag. (unintentional at the time) After the FW deystroyed the sps colony. It attacked the milli colony & stripped it to the bone. I talked to a german reefer about these SOB's almost a year ago as these have been a problem over there for at least 2 + years. Different opinions flew around from his local fellow reefers. Some broke all newly acquired colonies & frags from their bases & trashed them before dipping the coral & introducing them in their sytem. Seemed to work for them because they indeed knew what they were looking for. Others who had tanks that were infected snapped all infected corals from there bases & discarded the bases & dead coral. They went up a couple inches from the dead tissue. Did a dip & a thorough inspection & continued with the hobby. They also introduced 6 line wrasses & also manderins into their tanks too!! Most of them had great results.
So to put it in a nutshell.....It depends on how diligent you are at inspection & erradication. The monti eating nudis are very similar in this way. No medicine to treat & kill the pests & they can ravage a coral pretty quick once they get to full grown size. (if you don't know what to look for)They also multiply in the same way as the FW & can explode in population if not found quickly.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Stores and Worms

I agree that we need to take on some of the responsibility...we already are beginning to do that by not trading or selling frags from infested systems/colonies. But what your comment suggests is that the stores bear no responsibility whatsoever. If we continue to make these comments, the LFS and other vendors will read them and think "OK, that gives me carte blanche to buy today and sell tomorrow".

Maybe a 3 month quarantine is not the answer, but the vendors could do what we are already beginning to do: Look over every specimen as best as they can, blast them with turkey basters, dip them in SaeChem to get the worms to fall off, and check for and scrape of eggs, or whatever more they can do to at least minimize the problem, albeit completely solve the problem.

If we do not demand a better product then we will not get one and we will continue to take most of the responsibility for eradicating the worms. It is for this reason that I do not agree with your mindset since it supplies vendors with enough wiggle room to do nothing. They can't do it all but they can try to help....some vendors already are helping (Jeremy at CRA), others I believe may not be helping. Only together with the LFS, retailers, wholesalers, and everyone else up the chain can we succeed. I believe that we must hold the stores to a higher standard with the possibility of temporary higher prices that eventually would decline.

Also, to expect an lfs or online vendor to hold corals for 3 months is IMO not practical. These guys would have to dish out their money and sit on it for 90 days before even the possibility of a return. Again, just my oppinion but we are the ones who want to collect corals. We need to take on some of the responsibility ourselves, or cost of this hobby would skyrocket and exclude many, many people.

 

[denvig]

Denis, I don't believe they will harm the zoas( probably just a clean surface in the path of their egg laying festivities) I don't think they'll harm the rock either ....and I have to R's in my name!!

My point here was that I thought that they stayed on the Acros. But now seeing them on the rock means that even if you remove all the acros you may still have worms on the rock.

 

[One Eye]

My point here was that I thought that they stayed on the Acros. But now seeing them on the rock means that even if you remove all the acros you may still have worms on the rock.

Denis, it was just an attempt at humor....obviously a failed attempt, but an attempt none the less.

 

[Aquaman_68]

My point here was that I thought that they stayed on the Acros. But now seeing them on the rock means that even if you remove all the acros you may still have worms on the rock.

But they need a host to survive. If there are eggs or worms on rock rubble etc & no acros in the tank they will perish. How long will it take? Thats another chapter!!

 

[One Eye]

I hope to be able to tell you soon. I'm letting those eggs hatch(or whatever you call it)
I picked up another little 5 gal tank, I'm going to play around with them a little. I'll keep one tank with acros in it for food and breeding space and I'm going to try to break off a piece of skeleton with a bunch of eggs on it and put it in a seperate tank that's empty except for the dead branch and eggs. I'll watch and see how long they survive without acro flesh. Of course an adult would probably live longer than a fresh hatched worm.

 

[~Flighty~]

see if dipping them in something will change their color. I'm sure a biologist can tell you better, but there ar a bunch of stains for seeing different things better under a microscope. If you found something that colored worms, but didn't hurt the coral it might be a beter way to detect them maybe?

 

[Greg Hiller]

>BTW, my Spotted Mandarin love these flatworms, he's like me with a prime rib!!<

Darren,

That is very good to hear.

>Maybe our resident sage, Greg Hiller, could recommended a trading procedure that we could possibly all agree to abide by as the 'Hiller QT Standard.'<

Thanks for the compliment, I'm not sure I can give you a good answer. It sounds like these guys can mature so slowly it can be very difficult to quarantine. Seems a little spooky, but it reminds me of the problem with humans and AIDS. Takes so long to get really sick that you can infect huge #'s of people before you die (I realize that some are living very long with treatment now).

>Maybe a 3 month quarantine is not the answer, but the vendors could do what we are already beginning to do: Look over every specimen as best as they can, blast them with turkey basters, dip them in SaeChem to get the worms to fall off, and check for and scrape of eggs, or whatever more they can do to at least minimize the problem, albeit completely solve the problem. <

I think most of the better shops are now doing this (by this I mean looking for the problem and trying to fix it), but there will always be shops that don't even know about the problem. It might not be so much negligence as ignorance.

>I hope to be able to tell you soon. I'm letting those eggs hatch(or whatever you call it) I picked up another little 5 gal tank, I'm going to play around with them a little.<

Darren, you may seriously want to consider writing an article for an on-line hobbyist magazine at some point (just make sure you put a water mark on your photos , you have plenty of excellent photos )

>see if dipping them in something will change their color. I'm sure a biologist can tell you better, but there ar a bunch of stains for seeing different things better under a microscope.<

There are many stains. I may ask around and see what I can find.

Still it sounds like if you dip a coral in the Seachem dip you can get them to fall off and see if the coral is infected.

My other thoughts on this issue (for what they are worth, remember, I have yet to deal directly with this plague, and please, I'm not trying to make a buck with any of my statements below, I'm just telling it as I see it):

You are probably far more likely to end up getting these into your system if you purchase large colonies, wild or from a hobbyist. These colonies have lots of places for the eggs and the mature worms to hid. I'd consider carefully where you obtain your corals from. If the tank looks healthy that's a very good sign. If you get smaller corals you can easily inspect the base for eggs, or just frag the colony so that you ONLY have a branch with live tissue (word is the eggs are not laid on live tissue). If you then do the SeaChem dip, with a little turkey baster action you ought to be able to see if any worms come off. If not, chances are the frag is clean. Move it to a Q-tank and put it next to a few pieces of the good 'ol L. Jackson Acropora there as canaries in the coal mine. Wouldn't hurt to have a wrasse or a Mandarin on had as well.

 

[One Eye]

Thanks for the compliment Greg. I'd be willing to try and write something, I don't who could or should be contacted for that.
Here's more. I found some interesting stuff today.
First, this one is 3/4" long. The first pic is the LJ, you can see the damage to the top portion of the coral done by the fresh water dip. I didn't see this FW until I looked at the pic, the flash must have made it stand out.

 

[One Eye]

Same flatworm caught out in the open.

 

[One Eye]

Here's one of the millis. The eggs are the same as 2 days ago. But there are small FW's all over it. Also, I now see clear/brown FWs on this coral. Red for clear/white FWs Blue for clear/brown FWs