Plumbing challenge

[NateHanson]

if siphon breaks...

You forgot a few things in that drawing Armando. Where is the sad Armando, Pixel and Gizmo floating away, and the downstairs neighbors at your door with an axe?

 

[Armando]

the extra water came from the pipes, not sure the volume at this point but can be quite a bit.

Chuck if I implement your solution I would have the two pipes going from one sump to another. I think this can be much simpler because it wouldn't involve overflows.

However I just thought of another problem. Both the brigde and the two-pump solutions would break my topoff float switch functionality

 

[NateHanson]

Agreed, a siphon break is bad, but I think you could make it a pretty remote outcome. Also, you can put a float switch in one of the tanks to shut off the pump if siphon breaks. Certainly this would take some planning, but I think you could also create a self-purging system that "burps" itself periodically to remove air from the top of the siphon line. I'd have to spend some time on the McMasterCarr website for that one though.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

"No Calibration 2 Pump Method"

Another way that may not require calibration is this:

Pump 1 draws from tank 1
Pump 2 draws from tank 2

The outputs of BOTH pump 1 AND pump2 are combined in a Tee of larger diameter than the pipe runs. The single combined output of the TEE is split by another TEE. Each end of the TEE is used to feed each tank. Now the outputs into each tank MUST be equal and this would eliminate or reduce the required accuracy of the calibration step. However, I would still use the sump float switches as a safety backup !

 

[reefsmurf]

What about the idea I put up in my last message? A small overflow box inside the tank and put the pump inside? A siphon break would cause the overflow box to be empty relatively quickly.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

I gotta get back to work.....this was fun...If I think of any other ideas I will post them tonight...But Armando, do not let the 2 pump idea scare you. It can be done with some cleverness !

 

[Armando]

there you go, Nate:

 

[NateHanson]

Haha! Thanks Armando!

Chuck, your "Tee" idea is intriguing, but as you have it the flow into each tank would be equal, but the output from each tank would not be equal. The important thing is to equalize input and output for each individual tank, so one tank does not overflow.


Nate

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Haha! Thanks Armando!

Chuck, your "Tee" idea is intriguing, but as you have it the flow into each tank would be equal, but the output from each tank would not be equal. The important thing is to equalize input and output for each individual tank, so one tank does not overflow.


Nate

Yes, you are right ! Then Feed tank 1 into pump 1, tank 2 into pump 2.
Then feed pump 1 output into pump2 input and pump2 output into pump1 input to create a hydrostatic ring plumbing topology. The outputs to ewach tank could be taken from a tee plumbed anywhere within the ring to separate out the two reqiuired outputs to each tank !

 

[reefsmurf]

Ok, here's a picture of my mini overflow idea. You may lose say .5-1 inch of water from tank A if you suffer a siphon break, but if you maintain that much clearance (.5-1") in tank B (+ a touch more for the pipe and overflow which should be insignficant), there is no risk.

The return water is via siphon (must kick start with a powerhead)

 

[NateHanson]

That sounds fancy Chuck! a bit pipe intensive, but I think we all know by now there's no simple solution to Armando's crazy idea.

Armando, is this for the smaller room that has your frag tank in it?

Nate

 

[jango]

Armando will these tanks be directly across from each other ?

 

[Scuba_Dave]

Solution: Buy the condo below you & install a common sump down there. Then rent it out at a profit

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

2 more simpler ideas:

1. Use one pump whose output is fed into a tee and each end of the tee is simultaneously fed into each tank. Connect the pump's input to a tee and feed each side with water from each tank. One input side you feed tank 1 and the other you feed tank 2

2. Use 1 pump with 4 motorized ball valves. 2 motorized ball valves on the input and 2 on the output. Now you can switch where the water is coming from and where it is going and you can time it accurately via X10 or other accurate means. So you use X10 to switch modes; mode 1 takes water from tank 1 and pumps it into tank 2, and mode 2 takes water from tank 2 and pumps it into tank 1. Each mode is activated only for a short period in which sump levels will rise. Before the sump levels rise to high, a mode switch is initiated and the flow is reversed. Now the accuracy of the timers is critical, but I believe that X-10 controlled ball valves would provide the degree of timing accuracy required. And the beauty is that if the accuracy of the timers is less than perfect, then the errors will vary in a random manner: Sometimes one side will get more water and sometimes the other side will get more water, effectively cancelling out any errors in the timing or ball valve opening and closing.

 

[denvig]

I do not agree....I have been using a similar system for my automatic water change for the last 4 years and you can really adjust the pump outputs to a high degree of accuracy if you are patient and if you repeat the process a few times and you use gate valves on each pump. I have been able to drain precisely 3 gallons of water and replace it using a 2 pump system, to within ounces. It is just a matter of calibrating the pump outputs to the same flowrate which absolutely can be done...Dennis stop by and I will show you how, if you are interested. Once you calibrate things, they do not change that much and the probability of a flood is remote, especially if you use the float valve and swithces. I have also seen this done on a few commercial systems as well, without problems.

The only way this would work is if you do use level controlers etc. We are not talking about 3 gallons of water here. this will be pumping all day and a differance of an ounce or two per 3 gallons of water pumping 600 GPH all day is one hell of a lot of water. I dont think you could do this without electronic controls.

 

[Armando]

To answer Nate's and jango's latest questions - yes for both.

 

[NateHanson]

To answer Nate's and jango's latest questions - yes for both.

Is the patio door in that room raised off the floor at all? Is there room right in front of it to extend the threshold of that patio door, and run a pipe under the extended threshold?

 

[Armando]

Nate the door is @ floor level unfortunately

 

[Armando]

i like reefsmurf's idea

 

[NateHanson]

reefsmurfs is a great idea. You'll still have to suck air out of the siphon return, though, I would think. I doubt you can push all the air out of your siphon pipe with a powerhead. Looks good though!