Frustrated with LFS prices and quality

I think we forget....

That a large majority of reefers don't belong to any clubs. Yes ...life goes on outside the BRS:D So many people don't know of any other outlets for there reefing supplys....ETC...ETC. I was there at one time happy not knowing what I seem to know now. We (Reefers on the BRS) know what the value of products might be, and what might seem silly, but the average person on the street has no clue, and guess what? I bet there very happy with not knowing the man behind the curtain is making money.;)

If people on here want to open up a "Easter Seals" Lfs be my guest. I will be happy to buy my $20 Clams from you, and dry goods at wholesale prices. I will just have to act quick.....for you won't be open to long.:D
 
Well, I have a smaller tank for one reason, I cannot afford a larger one. A 30g Oceanic cube with a clip on mh light will have to do. I only spent about $1,000 on my tank. I have only one store bought coral and the other 8 came from BRS members. I have bought a great deal of goods from two LFS in Southern NH including my light and skimmer. I use the 25% rule when buying equipment or dry goods. If I would save more than 25% including shipping then I would consider mail order unless I need it right away or it is an impulse buy. I'm very impulsive:). My CSS65 skimmer cost me $20 more and the Corallife Aqualight clip-on cost me $60 more. Is the $80 worth having reliable service on these items if needed. We can bash the LFS all we want but if we do not support them they will be gone then where will we be. Can Aqua Addicts or Aquarium Gallery beat Marine Depot on prices, never! Can you put your mh pendant in your car and bring it to Marine Depot to have it diagnosed the way you could bring it to B at AG if need be, never! Can you call up Marine Depot, Dr. Foster & Smith and get the knowledge base B has and advice for free, I don't think so. I think online sales have skewed the reality of what it costs to operate a store front and provide customer service. We have unreasonable expectations of what things should cost due to online sales sites. Just my $.02.
 
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Can you call up Marine Depot, Dr. Foster & Smith and get the knowledge base B has and advice for free,
sure you can on this one.

If the stuff in LFS is within 25% price range of online store (it is not the case, it is more like 100% and more), I have no problem buying from LFS.

AA is great, by all means to support it.
 
Can you call up Marine Depot, Dr. Foster & Smith and get the knowledge base B has and advice for free,
sure you can on this one.

If the stuff in LFS is within 25% price range of online store (it is not the case, it is more like 100% and more), I have no problem buying from LFS.

AA is great, by all means to support it.
I don't agree with you, Dong.
I have looked into the price of fish at LFS versus the price at LiveAquaria. I considered buying at LiveAquaria because they had some fish I wanted that I couldn't find in the LFS. The price of the fish I'm interested in wasn't that much different, given shipping costs. In addition, I really like seeing what I'm buying before making the purchase. I've had excellent luck with the fish I've bought for my 125 so far - all purchased from BRS sponsors. I have a good time talking with the folks in the store (customers & staff), doing some window shopping, and seeing the fish in vivo that I see pictured in the books.
I like being able to stop by on a weekend and pick up a fish and not having to pay $35 in shipping. Sometimes all that's in the budget is one fish, and when I consider the cost of shipping and inspecting before buying (seeing it eat, etc), I go with the LFS.
Your experience/opinion may vary.
 
The LFS i go to has great prices, Great live stock and will get you anything you need in a few days. Why can one do it(there might be more than one but its the only one i found) and no others.
 
moe, actually I was reffering dry goods in respond to another post.

You actually can call up LA's tech support and talk about fish and coral and they will give you good advise. I agree that some fish are priced similar online or in store. If I only buy one fish at a time, I will buy from local too because of the shipping cost.

One LFS is known to gaouge regular or naive customer but give BRS members big discount so that they can have good words passing around on this site.

Amount our sponsors that have furoms on the site, I agree that most of them are great. The one who offers the best price on fish and coral is an online store.
 
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I also want to point out that some wonderful treatments from some LFS to a select few, such as holding a fish for 1 month, feeding the fish before you buy, spending a lot of time answering questions etc, are not available to everyone. When I walked in as a regular customer, I could not even get some LFS to feed the fish I was interested in. Holding the fish for a month? never was offered to me. Sometimes finding someone in the store that can talk to you for more than 5 minutes is hard. I remeber one time I was in one LFS and the reef guru worked there spend all his time talking to a well known BRS member. I was left there alone for a long time. Finally when my turn was up, I ask if I can see a fish ate, he said "it just ate, do you want it or not." Then another employee walked over and starting to feed all the tanks.
 
I think this conversation is just going around in circles. A good LFS offers a service for the extra money. I think most of us like going to an LFS and looking at what we purchase. Or even just talking to other people interested in reefing (with out people looking at me funny). It sounds like some of the LFS are definitely offering value for the extra cost. I do believe that the competition from online venders is going to force the LFS to take a new look at how they do business. I would say the one thing that most LFS could improve upon without huge cost increases is simply being more attentive.

The internet has changed a lot of things. One of the best things it has done is increase the flow of information. I think it has helped this hobby grow dramatically in the last 5 years and will continue to do so going forward. I'd love to hear what some of the pioneers in reef keeping like our own Mr. Hiller have to say about the changes that it has made. It's so easy to find info. Just go on Google and do a search for reef and look at how much stuff pops up. Right now educated reef keepers might be the minority of an LFS business but going forward I'd say you are going to see more informed consumers who have done some research. As technology makes this hobby easier and info becomes more dependable I think the hobby will definitely continue to grow. I think that's the good new for someone who owns an LFS. They just have to find a way to harness these new revenue streams.
 
I'm actually quite surprised to see this topic brought up again...

I think a lot of people are making assumptions without really knowing the big picture. I'm not going to claim to know all because my involvement at the store is limited.

I think the biggest thing that has been overlooked is that most local shops have to buy their dry goods and fish from a distributor, meaning that whatever they buy now has to pass through at least 3 people's hands (the vendor, the distributor and finally to the LFS), which obviously all those people want to get their hands on some of that profit. The reason for this is because the local shops are not buying in large enough quantities to do business directly through the vendor, in addition to it being nice to only have to deal with one company when buying their drygoods/fish. I actually saw this first hand a couple weeks ago when I was shoppng around for an invisible fence system (for our puppy). Mike's drygood distributor carries all pet stuff (available for the same discounted rate that he gets his fish drygoods), so being a comsumer, and liking to save money I looked at that price and did a search online for the same exact product. I was actually shocked to find it on a website for $5 CHEAPER than what Mike could get it for from his distributor. Why? I'm sure that this online company buys 100's of these units directly from the vendor and probably even gets a better deal on them than Mike's distributor. The same unit at Petsmart was $120 over what Mike could get it for.

A few other points that I think have been missed is that there is a big difference in price when it comes to renting warehouse space vs retail space, and warehouse space is probably what 90% of these online stores are renting. Location doesn't really matter to them, asthetics of the actual store doesn't matter either. Customer service from the kid that online places hire for $6 an hour to bag fish all day is not an issue either. People who order online are not concerned about the knowledge of the kid bagging up the fish, whereas you go in a retail store you want to deal with someone who knows what they are talking about. Would you want to deal with someone who for arguements sake might not even speak English to sell you your drygoos or fish, I'm guessing not, and knowledgable help comes at a higher price tag.

A big reason for price flucuations between LFS's is probably in part (or even mostly) due to location. Mike has looked at renting space on Rt. 28, it is roughly 3X more expensive for approximately the same space as where he is at now. Obviously a price increase would be seen if that move was made, but ultimately would it end up bringing in more people because it is in a much more visable location and would it be worth it? Stuff like that is a constant struggle to try to answer and there are many LFS's out there that are paying astronomically high rent to be in a busy location.

I know people are going to come back and say "well we're not talking about ALL LFS's", but please realize that that is the way that this thread looks. To any newbie out there, who maybe hasn't travelled up to all the LFS's, threads like these are just going to make them go straight to online shopping and not want to check out any of the local shops.

I am unsure of why threads like this keep getting brought up? Do people think that LFS's will change their prices as a response? I don't think that any of the LFS's out there are making millions (or even 100,000's), heck I know we're not! Business at a retail store is much much different than these online places that can work out of a warehouse. Really it's up to each individual person as to where, and how they want to spend their money, so I don't know why everyone keeps going back and forth on this issue. I don't really know what these threads are accomplishing other than making blanket statements from a lot of people who might not fully even understand how a LFS needs to operate in order to keep theirs heads up above water (hypothetically speaking :) ).

As a consumer I always shop for the best prices too, I don't think anyone is faulting anyone for doing that, but it's really just impossible to say that an LFS can match prices with a online business unless you've tried it.
 
Very nicely stated. I agree that I can't quite figure what these types of threads ultimately accomplish other than allowing people to vent. As far as I am concerned everyone should just do what they want to do when it comes to purchasing dry goods and live stock. Since we are all aware of this issue I don't think that anyone is really learning anything new.
 
Andy, I think you summed it up. The LFS won't think outside of the box and don't seem to be willing or able to divorce themselves from their emotional attachment to the business in order to come up with new models. I keep hoping there is a LFS out there who can step back and look at these threads to learn from them. These are not price driven they are value driven.
 
Whew that was long!! Sorry!

Agreed, well stated.


Andy, I think you summed it up. The LFS won't think outside of the box and don't seem to be willing or able to divorce themselves from their emotional attachment to the business in order to come up with new models. I keep hoping there is a LFS out there who can step back and look at these threads to learn from them. These are not price driven they are value driven.

Did I miss something?
 
No, I don't think so, the way these threads seem to go the customers talk about what they experience and spitball ideas that could make the shopping experience better, and the only people who can change anything (LFS) choose not to take anything from them other than the negative.

As such no one gets anything from them.
 
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No, I don't think so, the way these threads seem to go the customers talk about what they experience and spitball ideas that could make the shopping experience better, and the only people who can change anything (LFS) choose not to take anything from them other than the negative.

As such no one gets anything from them.

Well I guess I have to disagree:eek: . I stated in the last go around of this issue that I feel it depends on who your LFS is. I think, as has been stated before that the term LFS is way to broad. In speaking with several (local to me) sponsor stores they do take some heed in what's been stated but are somewhat tired of being "flamed" on the boards that they help support. It really does not seem that they get all that much return revenue from BRS members compared to equally knowledgeable non-members.

I have to say that if I was a sponsor store I probably would take offense to this reoccurring topic that is based mostly on personal experience and opinion. I'm not surprised not to see them jump in too much on this topic as I'm sure it would only intensify an opinion based subject. It really just comes down to an individuals perceived value no?
 
Behrmon, the point is that the LFS are getting beat, and doing nothing about it. I'd love to see more LFS raising their own frags, DIY products, thigns we'd usually buy elsewhere, etc, IE selling products that the onlines CANT beat them at.

An example (thats no longer valid) is Southdown sand. I'm not sure how much of a markup the LFS makes on Coralsea, etc sand, but I'm sure its not much more than they'd make if they went down to Home depot and rebagged some southdown and sold it. (Marc was selling southdown, IIRC). Users would get a cheaper price, they'd get the same profit per bag, and more of us would go to the LFS instead of Home depot. I can get 50lbs of sand for $7 at HD, I'd maybe pay $10-12 from LFS, but I AM NOT going to pay $24 for a 20lb bag.

The thing is with sand, its not all that much to have a pallet shipped on a truck. It IS a lot to have each bag shipped. The Online place has to tack on shipping at $20+ a bag, while the LFS may only get a markup of $5 each bag on a pallet.


The problem is, the LFS' keep trying to compete with the online places in areas they can't, and refuse to look into areas where the online places can't compete. IE Holding fish, having beginner classes, home grown products, DIY stuff, etc. The only LFS that I've seen even trying this stuff, unfortunately, are too far away from me (CRA, with their house brands, and Marc's now defunct shop,with the southdown, and dry rock).


Another example of whats going on with LFS is the chain bookstores. (B&N, Borders, Etc). When Amazon, etc, started up, and was severly, and consistently outpricing them, a lot of them went under. So they realized they couldnt compete on price, and instead competed on value. They put in coffee shops, brought in poetry readings, author signings, etc, all the thigns Amazon CANT compete with. Theyre more expensive than Amazon, but theyre doing very well now.


the LFS keep making the mistake of thinking we're complaining about price. We're not. Barnes and Noble offers additional value over amazon because they can't compete on price, we're asking you to do the same thing.
 
I have to say that if I was a sponsor store I probably would take offense to this reoccurring topic that is based mostly on personal experience and opinion. I'm not surprised not to see them jump in too much on this topic as I'm sure it would only intensify an opinion based subject. It really just comes down to an individuals perceived value no?
Thats exactly the problem. They take offense, instead of realizing that there is a problem, and adapting.

This isnt just LFS, its every Mom and Pop shop thats getting put out of business by the internet, and big box stores. The issue isnt that they can't compete on price, the issue is that they aren't giving us any reason to ignore that they can't compete, other than "you shoudl support local shops"
 
Hey Rich,

I understand your points and do beleive that there is validty there. There have been good points made re. both sides of this issue.

My more specific thoughts on this are the sponsor stores. Now I know that the BRS does not survive based soley on they're sponsorship but from what I understand it is an added value (sponsorship dues, and auction donations and such), I know you would be in a mucher better postion re. that than I.

For me CRA is my local store, they are well aware that I make purchases from other BRS members and they fault me for it.

:) :) :) :)
 
the LFS keep making the mistake of thinking we're complaining about price. We're not. Barnes and Noble offers additional value over amazon because they can't compete on price, we're asking you to do the same thing.

This is the point I was trying to make anyway. ;)
 
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