help! ammonia spike...

[nickyblase]

As I've talked to a few of you about, I got a 65 gal tank from another member not too long ago. It's been set up for going on 2 weeks, and the last couple days I've noticed an ammonia reading!!

The nitrates are at just about zero (just barely showing up),
nitrites are 0,
temp 77,
ph 8.3
salinity 1.022
alk 9

I am guessing that in the move something died in the LR/LS. The fish are all eating fine and acting normally. No signs of ich/tail rot/heavy breathing or anything.

From what I recall, when ammonia is present, it is a bad idea to do water changes? How long should I wait? Also, is there something I can add to the water? I have some Amquel - would that help? Can I just dump it right into the water (since I am not supposed to do a water change)?

Help! I have a BEAUTIFUL Picasso trigger (among other things) in there that I would just die if anything happened to him.

 

[ReeferMedic]

It's probably going through a cycle since it has only been two weeks. You probably got some die off when changing tanks. I would do a good size water change and see if it comes down. I wouldn't go dumping anything in there if I were you......

 

[KAS]

It's probably going through a cycle since it has only been two weeks. You probably got some die off when changing tanks. I would do a good size water change and see if it comes down. I wouldn't go dumping anything in there if I were you......

Totally agree. In fact, I would plan on doing a sizable water change today (something like 30% maybe even 40%) and then plan on doing a 10%-15% every day or two for the next week or so and see how your reading go.

 

[nickyblase]

okay, thanks. I'll do that. I also forgot to mention that the sandbed got stirred up pretty well too... When I hooked everything up, I noticed that one of the powerheads was pointing right down on the sand! Not sure why it was setup that way, but it's not like that anymore!

 

[ReeferMedic]

Did you use the old sand? Personally, from my own experience, I will never transfer the sand from an old tank again. I'll just use a couple of cup fulls off the top and give away the rest.......

 

[KAS]

Yup. The sand is the likely suspect for what is causing your spike. Keep up with water changes to keep the ammonia down as much as possible.

 

[conrad]

I wouldn't go dumping anything in there if I were you......

I don't understand this comment in regards to Amquel. I would think that Amquel or any other good water conditioner would be an excellent emergency measure. Remember, people that use city tap water use this when making water for water changes anyway. I'm not advocating using tap water, merely pointing out that many do, and that the advice to do water changes implies Amquel or equivalent for most of those people.

It sounds like this isn't an emergency now, but if it were I wouldn't hesitate to pour in some Amquel.

--cn

 

[ReeferMedic]

I don't understand this comment in regards to Amquel.
--cn

I'm not familiar with this stuff at all, I don't use it. I'm just more inclined to address the problem, which is probably die off from the sand or whatever. You can spend your money and dump whatever you want in your tank. I don't think Amquel is the solution here though. To each their own......

 

[conrad]

OK, that's what I thought, you didn't really know what the stuff is!

I agree with you in general, dumping random "additives" into tanks without knowing what they do is probably a bad idea. But in *this particular case* I don't think the usual canned BRS no additives advice was the best match. Amquel is a "neutralizer" commonly used by people who are using city tap water instead of RO/DI, for whatever reasons. It neutralizes ammonia, chlorine, and chloramines. There are many other similar products out there. I think it would be foolish *not* to use one if using city water, though I know some do.

I don't see why in an ammonia spike emergency, such a product wouldn't be the first thing to reach for if you had some on hand. Remember, if you're going to do a water change and are using city water, you'll almost certainly be using this stuff anyway.

So, while I agree with your advice *generally*, I don't think it was well informed here (by your own admission). I don't add anything but kalk to my tanks, so I'm with you about additives, but this is really a neutralizer, not an additive.

--cn

 

[ReeferMedic]

A little touchy are we? Isn't this hobby supposed to be relaxing??????????

 

[conrad]

No, not at all touchy! I just want to be clear and precise. I thought nickyblase was looking for help, that your advice was *generally* correct, but not *specifically* relevant here, and that it would be worth clarifying for her, and others reading.

I don't take any of this stuff personally. I'm here to learn. And to help others learn where I can. I'm never afraid to say "I don't know" and people can call me an idiot all day long and it won't bother me. I'll still pester them to be precise in a debate.

I'm definitely in this for enjoyment and relaxation. But a big part of that for me is learning and education, and I'll challenge the most expert among us if he or she says something that doesn't make sense.

Sorry, no hard feelings intended at all ReeferMedic! I probably should have worded things differently!

--cn

 

[ReeferMedic]

I Sorry, no hard feelings intended at all ReeferMedic! I probably should have worded things differently!

--cn

No problem, none taken. I'll be the first to admit when I don't know what something is. Sorry if we hijacked your thread nickyblase. There were alot of exclamation points there, that's all. Good luck with your amonia spike, I have a little nitrate problem to take care of over here.

 

[NateHanson]

I'd add that even if something isn't snake oil, and you vaguely understand what it does, many people wouldn't put it in their tanks because you rarely know for certain that there won't be collateral damages. I don't think warning people not to add a liquid cure to their living reef tank is "usual canned BRS advice". I think it's widely considered good reefkeeping, rooted in experience, and personally I don't espouse it because it's popular, but because it's safe.

In this case regular water changes will remove ammonia and nitrite from the system, with no side effects (other than positive ones), and I'd agree with Karen's and Don's advice.

Nicky, I'd also agree that your transplanted sand bed is the source of your polution. How old was the sand bed before you inherited it?

 

[nickyblase]

oh god - they now look like they're dying!!!

PLEASE HELP!!!!! I did a 20 gal water change and put some activated carbon in a mesh sock in front of a powerhead and now an hour or 2 later, they are all breathing heavily and lying on their sides. I pulled them all out (still looking for the serpent star), but they are still lying on their sides in their little quarantines (I did a very quick acclimation to the brand new water).

HELP HELP!!! It is all I can do right now to not break down into tears!

 

[ReeferMedic]

What are you using for replacement water?

 

[nickyblase]

tap water treated with amquel. That's what I've always used, and there was never a problem. I am waiting for my 10 gallon qt to aerate a little and am going to put them in there. Can't wait long to aerate though - they all look like they could die at any moment. What do I do?

 

[NateHanson]

I haven't used tap and amquel so I'm not sure what the possible problems could be. I'd get them in the quarantine tank. What do you have for filtration in there? You may need to do frequent water changes to keep the water quality up.

I wonder if something has been changed in your tap water. maybe they're putting a new additive in it for summer time or something. Where are you? Is there a local reefer that can provide you with some RO water?

If you're at all close you're welcome to come get about 40 gallons of RO from me. I've also got 10g of salt water mixed and aerated.

Nate

 

[ReeferMedic]

I .

I wonder if something has been changed in your tap water. maybe they're putting a new additive in it for summer time or something. Where are you? Is there a local reefer that can provide you with some RO water?

Nate

I was thinking the same thing. I don't trust the local supply seeing what my prefilter looks like on my rodi unit after only 20 gallons or so goes through it. As log as you are aerating now, the Q tank should have plenty of O2 in it. I would get them right in there. I believe you can use distilled water also, which is available at any grocery store. That may be the quickest way for you to get some replacement water. Just make sure you are warming it up a bit.

 

[conrad]

Nate, I have a pretty decent idea what this stuff does. There are good articles on it to be found on line. I've read them previously. I've used a lot in the past with FO tanks using tapwater. I'm just trying to explain to others who apparently *don't* know what it is and does that it could well be useful in an ammonia spike emergency. I think "don't add additives" really must be "usual canned BRS advice" if people are defending it so blindly here. I was trying to point out a specific case where I think it falls short a bit.

I think ReeferMedic's advice was good, but I was guessing that it was given without his really knowing what Amquel is. So I thought I'd post a clarification. Turned out I was correct about the basis for his advice. I stand by my clarification as potentially useful to nickyblase.

What I'm trying to say, nickyblase, is that if you're having an ammonia spike emergency and you believe that's the reason your fish are hurting, I'd add some Amquel you have right damn quick, rather than waiting for the natural course of nitrifying bacteria to multiply over the next few days or weeks ... and the fish to die in the meantime. Don't let your fish die just because of the *generally excellent, mind you* advice of reef purists not to put "additives" in your tank.

If you use city tap water, which likely has chlorine and/or chloramine, you really should use Amquel or some similar water conditioner to neutralize those. Amquel in particular also neutralizes ammonia. These things don't need to be particularly carefully dosed, and claim no harm if overdosed. They also claim to be safe to add directly to a tank. Experience with FO tanks seems to bear this out -- I swear this stuff is the only thing that kept my gf's FO tanks alive for years. Anyway, let's say the only do water change advice is taken, and the person uses city tap water. Then they will be using a neutralizer, likely in some excess, making it equivalent to simply adding some to the tank anyway! So I'm pretty certain that using Amquel is reasonable here.

Like I said before, I'm not advocating tap water plus neutralizer instead of RO/DI, or challenging the generally excellent advice of not dosing random additives. I'm just trying to say that I think nickyblase had a very reasonable idea to use Amquel to help if she's having an ammonia spike emergency.

I recognize that you guys know much more than I do. But I think you're offering canned, rather than informed, advice in this specific case here.

--cn

 

[conrad]

You do hear horror stories of city water changing for the worse spontaneously. Amquel of course won't fix all source water problems, but it really should fix ammonia if that's the one you've identified. There are other more complete water conditioners, but you have no idea what other problem your water may have. Is the ammonia still high in your tank? Did you try adding Amquel to neutralize it? If so, then there must be some other problem I'd guess.

I agree with these guys, get RO/DI if you can. In the meantime you can put them in the qt if it's aerating already and you suspect something else in your tank. Have you tested the parameters of your qt tank?

I'd add some buffer of some sort if you use distilled water!

--cn