help! ammonia spike...

[nickyblase]

okay, I've pulled out a bunch of the LR to catch them, but I've found them all but one chromis and the serpent star. Hopefully when the water settles a little, I will find them, but I am not encouraged. They have all been put in the 10G QT with brand new water, and after only a few minutes, they are swimming around again. Still breathing a little heavily, but not lying on their sides anymore like they were before.

Well, except the puffer. He was swimming around fine after I put him in the 10G, but is now leaning up between the piece of LR I put in there and the glass. He did eat in the QT, so I'm wondering if he's claustrophobic?? There's a chromis, yellow tang, flame angel and him in the 10G (it's all I've got). How long can he survive in there (or all of them for that matter) while I get the big tank nack under control?

And I guess that's the million dollar question - how DO I get it back under control? The only things I did differently in this water change was I was a little (well, quite a bit) more liberal with my use of Amquel (but the label says it won't be toxic if you use more than the recommended dosage), did a much larger than normal h20 change (20gal), and placed that sock of activated carbon in the tank.

I'm happy that they look like they will survive, but am worried since I am still not out of the woods yet.

 

[nickyblase]

by the way, thanks for the offer of the RO, but I'm in Maine. I'd do natural sea water, but it's been raining like crazy around here...

 

[conrad]

I doubt putting a bit extra Amquel in was the problem, based on observing my gf with her FO tanks over the past two years. I'm a cautious guy and don't like adding random things to tanks in random doses. But there was no reasoning with her. So I read all the labels carefully and researched it online and concluded that it was very likely harmless. And I finally stopped cringing after *seeing* that it never did any harm, even when megadosed. Still, I've gone with RO/DI in my tanks and wouldn't switch back.

I trust the carbon wasn't in an actual sock, straight from the laundry, right? Stupid question probably, but sometimes stupid questions turn out not to be so stupid. Did you rinse the carbon? What kind of carbon is it? The last kind I got for the gf's FO tank did some weird fizzy thing when I rinsed it, which I thought was odd. I have no clue what was going on, but maybe putting that sort in unrinsed would be bad? I'm clueless here, have no idea what I'm talking about, and just throwing out ideas. It sounds to me that the biggest change from your usual routine was the carbon sock, so I suspect that myself.

I'm really glad to hear your fish are doing a bit better. I hate to see, or even hear about, fish and other critters dying. I'm sure we're all rooting for them to pull through.

Apologies to all for sounding so strident earlier. I'm just seeking clarity and feeling the panic for these poor fish. Best wishes to all, especially the finny ones!

--cn

 

[nickyblase]

Thanks for the well wishes. The puffer looks okay again - thank GOD!! Hopefullu he doesn't go nuts in such a small tank. The other thing I did that I just thought of was that I vacuumed the CRAP out of the sand bed. I thought that would be a good thing - getting rid of the yuckiness hiding in there, but maybe it stirred it up even worse?? Anyway - what's done is done. My tank basically crashed. Thank god all my boys (well, maybe boys and girls), didn't die. Still haven't found the serpent star and last chromis - water still too cloudy.

So, now what do I do? I will go to the store and get a bunch of distilled water, but how much should I do? Should I take out like 75% of the water and start new? Also, should I scoop out most or all of that LS and get some playsand or something? Or, should I just leave it alone and not touch that damn sand ever again?

 

[conrad]

Ah, *that* may be the culprit. I've experienced bad things happening after major sandbed vacuuming. I think it's best not to disturb too much of it at any one time. I'd heard that advice many times from the LFS, but we didn't always heed it. Sometimes I have to learn from (bad) experiences. I don't know, maybe you damaged or removed too much of your nitrifying bacteria by doing a major sandbed cleaning, and that caused the ammonia spike? I'm sure others with more knowledge can provide an explanation. Perhaps you have to wait for your tank to cycle again now?

I guess I'd do a water change and run a mechanical filter if you have one to clear up the cloudiness. I would think that you'd need to add buffer to distilled water before adding your salt mix, and if you don't have some sort of buffering agent on hand I think you may be better off with your usual tap water plus Amquel. There may be something you can use from the grocery store though as a buffering agent. I'd have to do a search, but I'm sure others here know off the top of their heads.

I'm very happy to hear your fish are doing OK again!

--cn

 

[nickyblase]

How long do you think I can keep them in such a small QT? I would actually go out and buy a larger tank for a qt, but wonder if that would cause more undue stress to the fish to catch them AGAIN, and acclimate AGAIN... Will they be okay in a 10gallon for a day or 2 (assuming that's all it will take) to get the tank back under control??

P.S. THANK GOD you are still awake!!! Any other night owls out there that can help me?

 

[starrfish]

What was/is your ammonia reading? I agree with Conrad on the emergency use of Amquel or Prime to get rid of the ammonia - these products convert the harmful ammonia into harmless ammonia. I use Prime in my QT all the time when I do water changes just to make sure there isn't any ammonia because the water quality in a QT is very difficult to keep up. Speaking of which, a 10 gallon tank is way too small for all those fish for any amount of time. They are going to get very stressed and sick shortly. Do you have a 30 gallon tub you can put them in - something like a rubbermaid tub? With all of the fish in that small tank, it's going to be impossible to keep the water quality up. I would leave the sand in your 65, but do a major water change - I would remove most of the water and replace it with new stuff. If all you have is distilled, that's fine - I would use the Amquel to remove the chlorine/chloramines.

Just one more person's opinion.....good luck.

 

[~Flighty~]

No need to add anything to ro/di other than the salt mix. You are MUCH better off with rodi than with tap. Unlike with freashwater tanks, trace amounts of things like copper will kill things in liverock and sand, as well as hurting starfish etc.

The sandbead has several layers. The lower layers have lots of nasties that are by-prouducts of what goes on down there. You generally don't want to mix that up into the water.

The amonia is most likely from something dying or extra food rotting. It could be the critters in the sand that died, or the missing fish, or one caused the other and compounded the problem.

Just to rule out one other source, you may want to test your tap water treated with amquel and salt for ammonia just to be sure. It is an easy test just to be sure.

 

[MarkO]

What was/is your ammonia reading? I agree with Conrad on the emergency use of Amquel or Prime to get rid of the ammonia - these products convert the harmful ammonia into harmless ammonia. I use Prime in my QT all the time when I do water changes just to make sure there isn't any ammonia because the water quality in a QT is very difficult to keep up. Speaking of which, a 10 gallon tank is way too small for all those fish for any amount of time. They are going to get very stressed and sick shortly. Do you have a 30 gallon tub you can put them in - something like a rubbermaid tub? With all of the fish in that small tank, it's going to be impossible to keep the water quality up. I would leave the sand in your 65, but do a major water change - I would remove most of the water and replace it with new stuff. If all you have is distilled, that's fine - I would use the Amquel to remove the chlorine/chloramines.

Just one more person's opinion.....good luck.

Well said. If you are looking for advise, we can offer more help if we know what your ammonia reading is. (Maybe it's an Oxygen issue more than an ammonia.) Try to break the surface of the water with a powerhead. You've got waaaay too many fish in that small tank. I recommend you NOT FEED tehm for a couple of days. Anythign you feed them will likely increase the ammonia level. The fish are under a lot of stress. So try to keep them stress free (not chasing them with a net, etc...).
I'm not a fan of snake oil cure-alls not because I don't think they work, but because you are adding something un-natural. But I do agree that IF ammonia IS the cause of the stress, add ONLY enough Amquel (or whatever it's called) to drop the ammonia to less than 0.25 ppm (or the lowest detection on your test kit).
Keep testing and post your results.
Good Luck!

 

[nickyblase]

the reading was between .025 and .050 for the ammonia. I will test it again in the morning. I will also run to Home Depot on my lunch break tomorrow to get a 30 gallon tub. I have no access to RO water, so I guess my best bet is distilled. I have tested my water straight out of the tap with just the amquel and salt before,and ammonia read at zero.

I just went upstairs to look at the tank once again, and the chromis that I couldn't find earlier when I was moving everything to QT was in there swimming around like nothing happened?? I am hoping that's a good sign that the tank is settling down a bit. I will test again in the morning. Maybe I will get lucky and can put everyone back when I get out of work tomorrow. Think they will be okay in the 10g until tomorrow night (Mon)? If so, I don't want to stress them out at lunch time (and myself with time constraints - tomorrow's my first day at a new job) by putting them into a temporary 30 gallon tub.

Also - what about the tub with the LR in it? I was thinking about putting that back in the tank first thing in the morning and seeing what happens, hoping that if it stirred anything else up, it would be settled back down when I came home from work so I could do another major h20 change and put the fish back in. Your thoughts??

 

[~Flighty~]

Make sure everything is heated including rock/ Just think of it as covered in living critters who will be harmed by bad conditions just like a fish would be. they can die and cause their own amonia spike.

 

[conrad]

Lots of good advice here. Sounds like you'll probably be OK.

I was thinking that distilled water would need buffering before adding salt mix, but I guess it's probably very similar to RO/DI in it's lack of minerals, so doesn't need different treatment. That said, I buffer my RO/DI before adding my salt mix, though I'm not sure I need to do that. Sorry if I created any confusion there.

I was preoccupied earlier with two of my terebellid worms getting it on in my 5.5 gallon tank. I'll see if I can get pictures up soon. But I was wondering and worrying about your fish all the while.

--cn

 

[starrfish]

If you get home tonight and the ammonia reading has gone down in your main tank, I would put the fish back in there. The less you move them around, the less you'll stress them out. If the ammonia hasn't gone down, I would get the big ones out of the 10 gallon as soon as you can.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Daire

 

[nunofs]

the reading was between .025 and .050 for the ammonia.

I'm assuming you mean 0.25 and 0.50, right? (I don't think there are any tests that read those smaller values)... if so, those levels are pretty low and not really dangerous to fish (on the short term), they shouldn't cause them to breath heavily or swim funny.

I suspect something else is at play here, probably due to disturbing the sand bed... I would remove all the sand and start over if it were me.

I buffer my RO/DI before adding my salt mix, though I'm not sure I need to do that.

No, you don't need to add anything to the water (be it distilled or RODI) before the salt mix, it's got all the minerals that you need. That said, some salt mixes are low in one component or another, so you may need to supplement after adding the salt mix, but only after measuring calcium and alk.

Nuno

 

[ReeferMedic]

Yeah, .25-.50 shouldn't cause a mass die off of almost all your fish. If were my tank, I would change the sand also. I'll doing this to my 180 a week from Saturday. So, a 65 shouldn't be a big deal especially if all the fish are out already. Just my own opinion of course. I wouldn't want to give you any more bad advice..........

 

[MarkO]

In my experience, I've never had a problem relocating a sand bed. But that may be due to me quickly moving the sand and never letting it become anoxic.

 

[starrfish]

I agree with everyone above, that really isn't a high ammonia reading - at least not high enough to kill all your fish. It does sound like the sandbed is your problem. If it were me, I'd remove it and start from scratch. Good luck.

 

[clamm]

I agree with daire, but Im in pepperell and have some water if you need it...best way to eliminate ammonia, nitrates, nitrites is aggresive water changes. I know its a PITA but it works... Good luck...looks like you have alot of people willing to help.

 

[NateHanson]

Not to discount Amquel for ammonia reduction here, but I really think you're almost always safer doing aggressive water changes if things are bad in your tank. As it looks like the case is here, you rarely know for certain what the problem is, and doing aggressive water changes will address all but a very few potential water quality problems. In this case the Ammonia may only be a symptom of what's threatening your fish, and looks like it's not really high enough to have made them all act so ill. Do water changes. Lots of them. First daily (if you're putting the fish back), and then once or twice a week for a few weeks until you're sure things are settling down and getting back on track. As for the sand bed, I'd probably remove/replace it if all the fish are out, and you have a decent place for them to stay for 2-3 days. If you don't want to do that I'd just put the fish back, and keep a real close eye on them and the water parameters. Find some decent water, and do lots of water changes.

Nate

 

[nickyblase]

Well, here's the latest... After doing that 20g water change (when the fish got stressed and I pulled them out), the ammonia was like I mentioned before between .25 and .50. It now appears that the tank is recycling itself???!!!! The ammonia when I tested tonight was 2.0. This is getting very dis-heartening. I took some water from my 20G reef tank and added it to the 65g hoping that it would help bring things under control, but to no avail. I really don't think it's a good idea at this point to do more water changes, as it will just prolong the cycle, don't you think?? I am also a little afraid to do anything with the sandbed. I have been doing daily water changes in the tiny little 10G QT that the fish are in, and limiting how much food they get, but how long can I keep them in there? I am DEFINITELY NOT putting them back in the tank with an ammonia reading like that!

Would it be more stressful for them to be in close quarters and have daily water changes, or for me to set up a whole new, larger QT and stress them out by moving them yet again?? I'm really hoping that the new cycle will not take very long. Has anyone gone through this before?