loud drain to sump (air bubbles), how to quiet?
- Thread starter nunofs
- Start date
Lam
aka Auberon
I've tried almost all these techniques. Figure B won't work.
If you put it the drain below water surface, the force of water/air will go right to the bottom and drain there. Some air will escape, but not nearly enough through the upper tube.
If you put the tube above the water surface, there will be lots of noise and most likely, the water will exit the top tube instead of the bottom. Very little water will go through the bottom but not nearly enough.
Let me know if it works. I'm curious if you guys can find a solution to MY problem as well.
If you put it the drain below water surface, the force of water/air will go right to the bottom and drain there. Some air will escape, but not nearly enough through the upper tube.
If you put the tube above the water surface, there will be lots of noise and most likely, the water will exit the top tube instead of the bottom. Very little water will go through the bottom but not nearly enough.
Let me know if it works. I'm curious if you guys can find a solution to MY problem as well.
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
FWIW, here's a pic of the relevant area in my sump, showing the upside-down durso (never mind the elbow on the top of the durso, I had a drilled cap there but had the same "burping" issue that Jason mentioned so I replaced it with an elbow, to try and direct any spray into the sump and away from the electrical stuff):
Notice the amount of bubbles coming from the end of the tube... and this is with the return pump dialed back quite a bit, which in turn lowers the flow in the drain to the sump. If I open it up all the way, the bubbles -- and the noise and salt creep -- become insane...
Help, please
Nuno
Notice the amount of bubbles coming from the end of the tube... and this is with the return pump dialed back quite a bit, which in turn lowers the flow in the drain to the sump. If I open it up all the way, the bubbles -- and the noise and salt creep -- become insane...
Help, please
Nuno
NateHanson
Non-member
You could control the spray and creep by surrounding that bubble geyser with a 2" pipe placed over your 1" output. Cap the 2" pipe (with vent holes in the cap) just above the waterline, and cut lots of slots or holes near the bottom of the pipe. The bubbles will still come out of your pipe, but they'll pop inside of the 2" pipe and the spray will be contained inside this contraption. Water (without most of the bubbles, will exit the bottom of the 2" pipe).
This is a scaled-down adaptation of a 5g bucket contraption that Greg Hiller suggested.
This is a scaled-down adaptation of a 5g bucket contraption that Greg Hiller suggested.
JBendel
Well-Known Member
If I am looking at the pic correctly ... your return looks like it's running lateral at one point, if not slighty down .... my sump input was making all kinds of gurgling and bubbles when I had about a 1' lateral run, but when I replumbed to give it a 45 degree angle .... noise/bubbles went to almost zero.
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
Nate: that should work... but I guess my issue with this whole thing is that I thought the Durso would mean that there would be no bubbles entering the pipe to begin with (the air would be vented through the hole at the top of the durso)... if that's not true, then I'll have to resort to something like what you suggested... actually, I quite like your solution because it will take up very little space in the sump.
JBendel: you're right, part of the drain is horizontal, close to the bottom of the sump... it's the bottom of the "T" for the inverted durso (see the diagram earlier in the thread)... when you say "45 degree angle", do you mean having the open end of the pipe pointing up, or down?
Thanks,
Nuno
JBendel: you're right, part of the drain is horizontal, close to the bottom of the sump... it's the bottom of the "T" for the inverted durso (see the diagram earlier in the thread)... when you say "45 degree angle", do you mean having the open end of the pipe pointing up, or down?
Thanks,
Nuno
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
Lam, you're right about the air in the durso, I was thinking of the hole in the cap as a vent but it's more of a controlled air intake...
I was reading a thread on RC (can't find the link now, will post later if/when I find it again) about a new type of drain that is completely submerged... ie, you have an open pipe (with a strainer) in the overflow that needs to be completely under water (preferably under a few inches of water), this way no air at all enters the pipe...
I've tried it and it does work, it's absolutely silent... however, and this is a big however, it is a bit risky because you need to control the flow in the drain with a ball valve, so that the open pipe doesn't completely empty the overflow... having a half closed ball valve in the drain pipe is too risky for my tastes (fear of clogging). It's also a bit of a balancing act because you need to make sure that the drain and return are in sync so that the water level inside the overflow doesn't change a lot...
In that thread they recommend using the return bulkhead as a backup drain (in case the main one gets clogged), but so far I didn't feel like changing my plumbing just to try that out... but FWIW it does work, it's silent and there are no bubbles because no air can enter the pipe.
Nuno
I was reading a thread on RC (can't find the link now, will post later if/when I find it again) about a new type of drain that is completely submerged... ie, you have an open pipe (with a strainer) in the overflow that needs to be completely under water (preferably under a few inches of water), this way no air at all enters the pipe...
I've tried it and it does work, it's absolutely silent... however, and this is a big however, it is a bit risky because you need to control the flow in the drain with a ball valve, so that the open pipe doesn't completely empty the overflow... having a half closed ball valve in the drain pipe is too risky for my tastes (fear of clogging). It's also a bit of a balancing act because you need to make sure that the drain and return are in sync so that the water level inside the overflow doesn't change a lot...
In that thread they recommend using the return bulkhead as a backup drain (in case the main one gets clogged), but so far I didn't feel like changing my plumbing just to try that out... but FWIW it does work, it's silent and there are no bubbles because no air can enter the pipe.
Nuno
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
I haven't found the link yet, but here's a pic to illustrate the concept (it's really much simpler than it sounds):
The left pipe is the drain (the dashed part on top is a strainer), the right part is the return, which they recommend you convert into a backup drain -- basically an open pipe that's just above the water line and would only be used if the water level starts to rise due to the main drain clogging.
The trick is to make sure the open pipe on the left is under at least 4 or 6" of water, so that no air can get in and no whirlwind is created by the suction... this can only be done by restricting the drain with a valve and that's exactly the part that I'm not too comfortable with... although having a backup drain would alleviate my concerns.
Nuno
The left pipe is the drain (the dashed part on top is a strainer), the right part is the return, which they recommend you convert into a backup drain -- basically an open pipe that's just above the water line and would only be used if the water level starts to rise due to the main drain clogging.
The trick is to make sure the open pipe on the left is under at least 4 or 6" of water, so that no air can get in and no whirlwind is created by the suction... this can only be done by restricting the drain with a valve and that's exactly the part that I'm not too comfortable with... although having a backup drain would alleviate my concerns.
Nuno
dedfish
That's Mr.Murphy to you!
I get it now, but it won't work for me. My drains are through the back wall and I could never get them that far under the water. Back to the drawing board for me.
I'm still interested in hearing Scott's take on all this since he recmmended the upside down durso. Scott where are you?
I'm still interested in hearing Scott's take on all this since he recmmended the upside down durso. Scott where are you?
Hey guys -
I saw this thread when it first started and didn't contribute 'cause I thought the problem was under control. Looking back, I can see the error in the suggested design. I have one of these running in my new sump, so I know the design I'm about to describe works... and after needing to make several adjustments based on the veolcity of the flow I'm dealing with (25 foot drop), I know why and how it works.
If you look at the bottom of Nuno's plumbing, you'll see the T. The issue is that the T needs to be turned 90 degrees clockwise in that installation... so that after the water comes down the verticle pipe, into the elbow to begin horizontal flow, sudden impact happens when it slams into the 'top' of the the T (now turned onto it's side). The bubbles are broken up by that impact and sent floating up the release tube. The release tube is installed above the impact point on the T... and the water escapes below the impact point in the T. I don't know how to draw this thing and transfer the sketch to this thread... I could use some help if anyone understands and can illustrate.
The way the T is installed right now... the water just flows right through, as do the bubbles, as you can see. The whole point of the T design is to stop the water suddenly to break up the bubbles. As installed in the photo above, There is nothing to break up the bubbles and send them (up) in the opposite direction from the water (down) which is the goal. The water falling from the top of the plumbing comes down, hits nothing... and flows out of the tube. The air release tube in Nuno's application is useless.
Nuno - turn the T 90 degress clockwise... then put a cap on the top of the release tube with a hole drilled - to slowly (and quietly) release the bubbles that rise. Let the relatively bubble-less water flow out of the bottom.
With LOTS of heavy water coming down the tube, it may be necessary to enlarge the T one or even two sizes larger than the PVC pipe bringing the water into the sump. THis is necessary because with water flowing very quickly, there needs to be more space inside the T and riser for the bubbles to break up before rising. I have a 1.5" tube, down to a 1.5" elbow, going into a 3" T and riser tube! In my application a 1.5" T didn't offer enough space for the bubble to crash and rise, so the water and air was forcedforced down and out of the T, accomplishing nothing.
I hope this makes sense.
bec
I saw this thread when it first started and didn't contribute 'cause I thought the problem was under control. Looking back, I can see the error in the suggested design. I have one of these running in my new sump, so I know the design I'm about to describe works... and after needing to make several adjustments based on the veolcity of the flow I'm dealing with (25 foot drop), I know why and how it works.
If you look at the bottom of Nuno's plumbing, you'll see the T. The issue is that the T needs to be turned 90 degrees clockwise in that installation... so that after the water comes down the verticle pipe, into the elbow to begin horizontal flow, sudden impact happens when it slams into the 'top' of the the T (now turned onto it's side). The bubbles are broken up by that impact and sent floating up the release tube. The release tube is installed above the impact point on the T... and the water escapes below the impact point in the T. I don't know how to draw this thing and transfer the sketch to this thread... I could use some help if anyone understands and can illustrate.
The way the T is installed right now... the water just flows right through, as do the bubbles, as you can see. The whole point of the T design is to stop the water suddenly to break up the bubbles. As installed in the photo above, There is nothing to break up the bubbles and send them (up) in the opposite direction from the water (down) which is the goal. The water falling from the top of the plumbing comes down, hits nothing... and flows out of the tube. The air release tube in Nuno's application is useless.
Nuno - turn the T 90 degress clockwise... then put a cap on the top of the release tube with a hole drilled - to slowly (and quietly) release the bubbles that rise. Let the relatively bubble-less water flow out of the bottom.
With LOTS of heavy water coming down the tube, it may be necessary to enlarge the T one or even two sizes larger than the PVC pipe bringing the water into the sump. THis is necessary because with water flowing very quickly, there needs to be more space inside the T and riser for the bubbles to break up before rising. I have a 1.5" tube, down to a 1.5" elbow, going into a 3" T and riser tube! In my application a 1.5" T didn't offer enough space for the bubble to crash and rise, so the water and air was forcedforced down and out of the T, accomplishing nothing.
I hope this makes sense.
bec
Looking back again...
jimmyj7090 and dedfish (figure A) had it right.
jimmyj7090's design was dead on, but the T needs to be BELOW the water line, with the bottom of the T, or a tube extending from the bottom of the T, as close to the sump floor as possible (say... 1/2" or so?)
dedfish -
Your design A is perfect, but you don't really need the extra bit coming off the bottom of the T. Daragon may have had bad luck with that design working well if the T and extended tubes were not LARGER (using reducers to make them all fit together) than the initial tubing bringing water into the sump. THe water needs a larger crashing point than the avenue it's coming from - as explained in my post above. Try it again with larger stuff at the bottom.. and a cap and small valve to control the escaping air on the release tube, and I'll bet it works.
b
jimmyj7090 and dedfish (figure A) had it right.
jimmyj7090's design was dead on, but the T needs to be BELOW the water line, with the bottom of the T, or a tube extending from the bottom of the T, as close to the sump floor as possible (say... 1/2" or so?)
dedfish -
Your design A is perfect, but you don't really need the extra bit coming off the bottom of the T. Daragon may have had bad luck with that design working well if the T and extended tubes were not LARGER (using reducers to make them all fit together) than the initial tubing bringing water into the sump. THe water needs a larger crashing point than the avenue it's coming from - as explained in my post above. Try it again with larger stuff at the bottom.. and a cap and small valve to control the escaping air on the release tube, and I'll bet it works.
b
Last edited:
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
In the meanwhile I found the RC link that I had mentioned above: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344892
Nuno
Nuno
