AEFW infestation

[dcforester1]

so you're selling frags while you know you have predatory nudi's in your system?

He wouldnt be the first member(swreef103) on this forum selling stuff that he knew was infested with something. (not saying he is/did)

Kevin are you going to be posting the methods you use to rid your tank of these? What are people using to kill these before they get into your tank? And does the dip that kills them, also kill the eggs?

Good Luck Kevin

 

[tigerslacrosse4]

good luck with that. I have regular flatworms and they are giving me a fight.

 

[Miller]

Kevin are you going to be posting the methods you use to rid your tank of these? What are people using to kill these before they get into your tank? And does the dip that kills them, also kill the eggs?

Good Luck Kevin

The dip to kill AEFW does not kill the eggs.

 

[kevinpratt823]

Nothing kills the eggs(without killing the coral). And I've heard enough and seen enough so far as to presume/act as if nothing actually kills the worms either(without killing the coral). I think the best that can be expected is to stun them with one of these dips(I'm going with hospital grade betadine, 12ml/gal). Multiple dips a week apart to get the worms of as they hatch and before they can mature to lay eggs. Maybe I'll start another thread to document my progress, but things are still hectic. 2/3 of my acros are now in a 30" cube tank QT, and I'm getting another 30" cube this week for the rest, which I will dip/QT next weekend, as well as re-dip the first tank. If any of you scientists out there want some eggs for research LMK, I have a piece with some on it in a 10 gal to watch them myself and get an idea of these timeframes.

 

[dcforester1]

The dip to kill AEFW does not kill the eggs.

How do you kill them(The Eggs)??

 

[kevinpratt823]

You can scrape off any eggs you see, but you are bound to miss a few and I'm not taking that chance. The eggs take 2 weeks to hatch, you get rid of the worms after they hatch, as they won't be mature enough to lay eggs for I believe a month or more(either way, it's considerably more than a week)
So the 3 dip cycles 1 week apart theoretically gets rid of any adults and allows time for all the eggs to hatch in between dips and get rid of those babies, without allowing any new eggs to be laid. I am not cutting any corners with this, my first round of dip already killed 5 of my corals, maybe more as a couple are receding now.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>here's the little culprit on my pokerstar i found.... <

Just to be clear as plenty of people will be confused. This initial thread was about AEFW (Acropora eating flatworms), they eat Acropora corals...as far as I know that's it. They are very small and nearly translucent, or slightly brown.

The photo that Swreef103 posted above is of a completely different parasite. They are called Montipora eating nudibranchs. These guys are typically much larger than AEFW. They are also nearly 'snow-white' in color, and are easy to spot if you know what you are looking for. This parasite is also very restricted in what it eats. It does appear to eat any Montipora genus coral however (of course likes some more than others).

 

[Jocko]

Glad I dipped all those frags. But since I have a big piece of that milli, I guess I better pull it out and give it a closer look. It's been doing great, but I'll look around the bottom edges for anything.

Thanks for being honest and posting this. It seems like you sell quite a few frags regularly, so to disrupt that cash flow (at least temporarily) and do the right thing speaks volumes. Kudos!

 

[jayman10134]

Would a blue velvet nudibranch eat them?

 

[Aquaman_68]

what do you have...or do you know?? I was worried this was going to happen.....I

I was calling this out openly on the boards lately with all the new members that are so quick to get out there & sell corals.....

So do you got aefw(acro eating flatworms) of MEN (monti eating nudis)? they both lay eggs......... (or do you even know?)

Levamisole HCI works on AEFW...( & also monti eating nudis) what happens when the levamisole gets older..(the worms don't die in the 5 hour bath) they just get paralyzed to the point that they move very slow.... Eggs from either one are not affected by the bath or dips out there...
There are some on these boards that take pests as very high priority before introducing them into a packed system... But nevertheless...better to be safe than sorry even if you know someone is "clean"

I've taken the meanest approach to dipping probably in this whole club...bar none....(& been doing it as long as I've been in the hobby) I have never introduced any rubble from any coral purchase..(not even zoos) I have too much to risk.... I started originally doing it cause I was deathly afraid of getting aptasia or Mojanos..(that shows how long I've been in the hobby)

Best advice to avoid eggs from entering your system after a dip or bath...don't add any rubble attached to a coral.. when you dip or bathe... Any dead coral skeleton on the base should also be clipped prior to the dip or bath..

I know everyone uses Betadyne for dipping... (or should I say flash dipping)

& they claim it is less stress on the corals....

& back when everyone started using levamisole there was a large mortality rate with many many reefers. (not including me) I would have to say the reason for my low mortality rates in the bath....
1) I never go over the 5 hour dip... (if I do...I lose)
2) Temp is very stable in the bath vessel
3) I aerate the water with airstones via an air pump
4) the myth of a powerhead being enough for circulation is wrong


FWIW....Any Meds you add to water for bath or dip rob the water of o2..

If the level of o2 goes too low in the bath vessel... you can say see ya to the corals your dipping...

My dipping practices by many in the club may be thought as overkill... old school or outdated...But for me ...they work!!!

This is how I do it... (you don't have to practice what I preach..)

here we go..

5 gal bucket

2.5 gals of tank water... heater submerged & calibrated air stones added & airpump connected..I start with a 13 gal treatment amount of interceptor for the 6 hour treatment.. add corals after removing rubble & any dead skeleton...one hour into bath...add Levamisole HCI powder..(weighed out for a 4 gal treatment)

exactly after the 6 total dipping hours... I remove the corals into another temp controlled vessel with tank water.. (7 mins)..I get another vessel ready with tropic marin pro coral cure...after the 7 mins in the reg tank water I remove the corals from that vessel & put them thru a dip for 15 mins in the TMPCC vessel.. after 15 mins...they go thru two more vessels of regular tank water in 7 min intervals... (this helps to purge the coral of toxins from the meds)

Am I crazy?? NO I have OCD!!! with everything I do...



It is important that those who are reading this & are not aware of what it takes to keep a tank parasite free....u need to retain this advice.. PASS IT ON!!!!

Thumbs up to you Kevin for coming clean... You need any advice...pm me....


B

 

[nicks387]

Kevin, I know someone told you the Levamisole doesnt kill the flatworms but from everything I ever read this is realy your best bet. Even if it doesnt kill them all 100% It will definately knock them off the corals. The guy I order Levamisole HCI from is this this guy:
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html he has the powder form thats 100% Levamisole HCI. Just wondering how you found out you had them? I hear they are near invisible.

 

[saltwaterB]

I am told by Tropic Marin that their TMPCC will kill AEFW's.
Any experience here with that?

I am not sure if it kills them, but it sure as hell it bothers them enough to fall off of an Acro. It is part of my normal dip routine. And I have seen them fall off in that dip (double dosage). That is when I cut the Acro off at the base, to not let any of the rock it came on (or potential eggs) into my system.
When I was bringing corals home to my system, I was very similar to Brian's process (not as involved, but close) But I felt it too much work, and knew I would get lazy at some point, and all that work would be wasted...my solution...keep LPS, not SPS...
Bit the point made about stable temp and O2 levels while dipping (or acclimating for that matter) could not be more on. That is probably the biggest cause of stress/loss. Way more than the chemical itself.


I have also heard that Coral RX will bother them real good too. But have not personally used it yet.

They do not seem to be bothered at all by FW Exit or most "Coral dips/disinfectants" on the market. No matter what the dosage.



Kevin,

Man am I sorry to hear this, your tank was just starting to grow in and look pissah...
If there is any way we can help you out, let me know.

 

[kevinpratt823]

Thanks for the support everybody. I found out I had them because somebody got a couple frags from me, and they came off in the bag when he got home. He puts a heavy dose of flatworm exit in as soon as he gets a frag, just to see if anything comes off(very smart). He PM'd me the following morning(Sat) but I didn't read it until later in the day. I then panicked and started looking over my frag tank and found one on a base slab of an acro. I asked Liam for help, and he came by the next morning(thank you) and really looked things over with me. There were two out of about 80 acros that had the slightest bit of white dots on the underside of branches, these were bite marks. He told me if they were in there they'd be on the big blue mille, so we dipped it in seachem disinfectant and about 12 fell off, some as big as 3/8", most tiny, when we waved it in the solution after a few minutes. So far I have dipped/QT'd 2/3rds of my acros and haven't seen anything like what came off the blue mille, but there were two spots with a few eggs. 95% of my frag tank went in the tresh, as they were more expendable. There were more eggs down there though. So this being said, I would not have noticed this until it got far worse down the road(thank you anonymous reefer). I'm pretty confident most of these dips will stun them enough to make them let go. The temp and o2 thing is definitely important in dips, nonetheless I shook these acros so violently in this solution I'm not surprised if a lot of them die, as some already have. All in all, this experience will make me a better reefer, and setbacks have never tended to stop me in the things I'm passionate about, I know all about setbacks and getting up when you fall down. I raced/rode motocross for 15 years, through 3 broken legs(the kind where the bone is sticking out) a broken back, countless ribs, collarbone, knee surgury.............
Now that energy(and stubborness) is directed at my reef tanks.

I may try levamisole on atleast one round of my dips in the next month.

 

[nicks387]

Well, Kevin I am truly sorry but its definately not the end of the world or the hobby. If anything it may help other reefers who think the odds of getting these are slim to re think things and if theres anything you need that I may be able to help you with just call me. You have the number.....

 

[Aquaman_68]

I am not sure if it kills them, but it sure as hell it bothers them enough to fall off of an Acro. It is part of my normal dip routine. And I have seen them fall off in that dip (double dosage). That is when I cut the Acro off at the base, to not let any of the rock it came on (or potential eggs) into my system.
When I was bringing corals home to my system, I was very similar to Brian's process (not as involved, but close) But I felt it too much work, and knew I would get lazy at some point, and all that work would be wasted...my solution...keep LPS, not SPS...
Bit the point made about stable temp and O2 levels while dipping (or acclimating for that matter) could not be more on. That is probably the biggest cause of stress/loss. Way more than the chemical itself.


I have also heard that Coral RX will bother them real good too. But have not personally used it yet.

They do not seem to be bothered at all by FW Exit or most "Coral dips/disinfectants" on the market. No matter what the dosage.



Kevin,

Man am I sorry to hear this, your tank was just starting to grow in and look pissah...
If there is any way we can help you out, let me know.

TMPCC at a high enough dose will make aefw turn to dust..

Just to put a little to people who may not know this...

most dips on the market commercially contain iodine..Betadyne is also iodine based.. (75%) pretty much anything with iodine will have an adverse effect on AEFW at a decent dose.. Lower doses will paralyze them..higher doses will turn them to dust...

Thumbs up Liam for helping your fellow reefer! (u r a stand up guy) you won't find a more giving reefer who loves every facet of this hobby..

Everyone...think of how important this is...If you bought frags from someone who has them...(being a newbie in the club yourself or selling to a newbie) then you sold or traded with someone...& so on...& so on...Before you know it...There will be alot of locals with the plague.. (people that are not aware of the potential of spreading these pests could be a major part of the mix..)

We have tons of info in regards to the threat on sticky's...knowledgable reefers that you can turn to inside this club as well if you have questions....

It kills me to see this...

We need to start stressing the importance of prevenative measures inside the club..(especially to the newbies possibly in the introduction area of this forum)

Keep the faith...
B

 

[smokey30]

Just curious when you order Interceptor which variation of it do you get there are different doses for different size cats or dogs? Also how do you know what a 13 gallon dose is? And finally where do you get Levamisole HCI I cant find it online anywhere.

 

[dcforester1]

TMPCC at a high enough dose will make aefw turn to dust..

Just to put a little to people who may not know this...

most dips on the market commercially contain iodine..Betadyne is also iodine based.. (75%) pretty much anything with iodine will have an adverse effect on AEFW at a decent dose.. Lower doses will paralyze them..higher doses will turn them to dust...

Thumbs up Liam for helping your fellow reefer! (u r a stand up guy) you won't find a more giving reefer who loves every facet of this hobby..

Everyone...think of how important this is...If you bought frags from someone who has them...(being a newbie in the club yourself or selling to a newbie) then you sold or traded with someone...& so on...& so on...Before you know it...There will be alot of locals with the plague.. (people that are not aware of the potential of spreading these pests could be a major part of the mix..)

We have tons of info in regards to the threat on sticky's...knowledgable reefers that you can turn to inside this club as well if you have questions....

It kills me to see this...

We need to start stressing the importance of prevenative measures inside the club..(especially to the newbies possibly in the introduction area of this forum)

Keep the faith...
B

I couldnt agree with you more. I think its great that guys like yourself step up, and try to help out. It seems to me people get discouraged when they ask for help, and people with knowledge are not willing to share it.

I recently asked a question on what people were doing (steps) on QTing fish. I got one responce. @#$ forbid I mention putting a fish in my DT without it sitting in a QT for six weeks, and I will get 20 people telling me how wrong I am.

I know this site has a search feature, but if we used that everytime we had a question nothing would get discussed around here. I am sure everything has been asked at sometime before. If I just wanted to look up answers to my questions, and not discuss issues/problems I am having. I would have just logged onto Wikkipedia.

I realize that when people like yourself give people info, some people take offense. I actually take it in, and try to learn from it. You have a ton of knowledge to offer. Maybe some meeting you could do a demo, of your procedure. I know you are busy, but people do want to learn the right way.I look up to people around here that actually have some exp, and those are the people I want to learn from.

I apologize for taking over the thread, after all it suppose to be Kevins on AEFW, so please remove if not appropriate.

Just my .02 Derek

 

[ReeferMedic]

Are you placing all your acros in a separate QT system? That is absolutely a necessary step. You also have to kill off any live acro tissue that is left behind in the display tank. A few weeks isn't nearly enough time imo. I also would not place any rock in the QT system. You will kill of anything beneficial with the treatments, whether is be betadine or levamisole. At the correct concentration, betadine will kill any kind of flatworm you may have. It does ime any way. As far as TMPCC, it's nothing more than expensive betadine imo. Even if there are other ingredients in it, it's the betadine that is killing the fw. You will lose some of your acros in the process. One thing you can do, is to set up another tank and place small frags of the tips of your acros in, changing water daily with your main display tank's water.

 

[kevinpratt823]

I have a 30"x30" cube that is isolated from all of my system, and I'm in the process of setting up another identical one for the rest of my acros, as the first cube is now filled and I still have about 20 acros to remove.Also I am removing every bit of encrustation in the DT system. I am not treating in the tanks, I am removing the corals(from the QT cubes) for the dip in a seperate container, then rinsing in tank water before returning them to the cubes. My entire DT system will be acro free for at least 2-3 mos, and these corals will be in QT under observation for maybe 6 mos before any go back to the DT. During this time, after my first month of initial dips, I will dip a few of them every week, watching for anything. Again, I know that betadyne/levamisole probably will kill them at the right dosages, but to leave no room for error, I am going about this as none of the worms will be dead until they are dried up little boogers. I am not risking one of them surviving.

 

[NeverlosT]

Hey Kevin, it was great to meet you the other day and I was so sorry to see such a terrible thing happen to a great guy and a great tank.

I saw this on RC (not sure if there are rules for linking other forums), but it is directly applicable here.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1660097

It is interesting to see the list of people that live with AEFW (im not advocating it, im just saying it is interesting). Sanjay, ChingChai, Reefbum, etc. The list of TOTM's that has been won by tanks with AEFW's is not short. I guess what I am trying to say is, it happens to the very best in the world, so dont be ashamed and good luck conquoring the problem!

I, for one, would very much like to watch some very conservative dip procedures. I dip using Coral Revive, Interceptor, and Betadine. I will be using an airstone in the dip in the future (thanks Aquaman) and will be using a WHITE dip vessel to better see if anything falls off. I also like the idea of clipping everything off of the rock it comes on.

We can all learn from this, and lets be diligent and keep this infection from reaching plague status in the club.

Another great article by Mark Levenson (yep, he had em too):
http://www.melevsreef.com/aefw.html