Parasitic Acro Flatworms: PLEASE HELP !

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Fair Enough

Agreed....which proves my point that there is intelligent life out there.

Fact 1 & 2 may be this but the rest I agree with Nuno on, they are your opinion/idea and not facts at all.

 

[One Eye]

Chuck, this is not a flame. I'm not attacking you or calling you poo poo head or anything Much of this debate is responsible reefkeeping and sales. I just reread the thread, it seems that you knew 2 or 3 months ago that you had these worms. You sold me frags 1 month ago. No warning that you had the pests. My point here is that it got by you, a hobbiest, how can anyone expect an LFS dealing with hundreds and hundreds of corals from multiple suppliers to be able to catch, qt, cure every pest. Impossible!!

 

[clamm]

I wear underwear....but I respect your right to wear panties, thongs, heels, nylons, garters, whatever

The visuals are disturbing...thanks chuck!

 

[NateHanson]

I really do not understand why everyone is more concerned for the LFSs than they are about themselves and fellow hobbyists and the advancement of the Reef Keeping hobby as a whole.

That's not how I would characterize my position. It's in my interest to have a number of successful LFS in my area. And it's in my interest to have reasonable prices on corals. I think I would lose both of those things if stores started doing 2 month quarantines or 2 month guarantees.

Nunofs, you did not read my reply carefully. How can you get the worms if you quarantine the coral at home? They would have had to come on the coral from the LFS. Do you mean that the LFS should not trust that we quarantined but that we should trust them?

I don't think the LFS would, or CAN trust a customer who returns a month later to say the coral was properly quarantined and died. There's just too much room for abuse and arguments. That sort of a policy wouldn't work for fish or corals, in my opinion. (If you keep a fish for 2 months in a new tank, with no other fish, and after months it develops an ailment and dies, will your LFS replace it? Should they? I don't think so, personally.)

If you ask a LFS if the coral is diseased you might get "No" "Don't think so", or "As far as I can tell", but you will never get "Yes, it is infected...do not buy it".

Some LFS are already saying "treating these corals - not for sale until cured". I think we should expect this straightforwardness from our stores, and I think in most cases we're already getting it.

I think the approach I'll take is vigilance, very close inspection and perhaps quarantine. I have to admit for me the problem isn't quite as grave, since I'm fairly well stocked, and am fairly sure I don't have pests right now. I can understand that this is a stickier problem for people who buy colonies more frequently, but with greater expenditure you take on greater risk. Same with having a bigger tank. I think risk is just part of the game, fortunately or unfortunately.

 

[stang8s]

I don't think the LFS would, or CAN trust a customer who returns a month later to say the coral was properly quarantined and died. There's just too much room for abuse and arguments. That sort of a policy wouldn't work for fish or corals, in my opinion. (If you keep a fish for 2 months in a new tank, with no other fish, and after months it develops an ailment and dies, will your LFS replace it? Should they? I don't think so, personally.)

You also have to remember that you are thinking from the perspective of someone educated in keeping these animals. I would say you are the minority as far as the LFS customer base goes. They get the person who is trying to keep clown fish in freshwater and everyone else between!

 

[NateHanson]

Tonight I will shop for my new quarantine sysem...something we all should do. If you do not have the means to set up a quarantine system then you are not ready to responsibly handle this hobby. Everyone needs to quarantine..period.

I've got to disagree with this generalization about who's ready for the hobby and who isn't. I don't typically quarantine corals or fish. It's not the way I've chosen to deal with pests. I've taken the approach of shopping very carefully, trading with people who are very diligent about their "reef hygiene", and maintaining a clean healthy tank where problems are easier to spot and address. I'm not saying this is the perfect or even the best way, just that it's an approach that's feasible for me, and that has so far been successful for my fish and corals. I'm not suggesting that my luck will continue forever, but pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a flatworm, redbug, whatever. I'd appreciate not being told that I'm not ready to handle this hobby because of the decisions I've thoughtfully made about how to care for my creatures. To be clear - I'm not angry, I'm not worked up, and I'm not speaking as a moderator. Just pointing out my personal approach and that it's worked for me as well as anyone could hope.

Nate

 

[nunofs]

I am not confusing anything...Your post was insulting....you said that I am acting like a savior of the hobby. That is an insult, serves no purpose and a ridiculous thing to say. Your post sounds angry to me....Are u saying that it is ok for you, a moderator, to post insults BUT it is not ok for anyone else?

My post was not insulting, if you can't understand that the way you've been behaving since the beginning of this mess is not appropriate (again) -- slowly but surely evolving from being the victim and demanding compensation, then retracting your statements when it was clear that they were damaging to you and your frag selling, and then quickly coming up with "solutions" and "facts" purported to save us all from the bugs -- then there's really nothing else I can say...

I know that most people can form their own opinions after reading what is posted here.

I know... and that is good. There's plenty here for people to make an informed judgement about character.

Since you're clearly just reeling people into pointless arguments, this is my last post on this thread directed to you. Other moderators can and will moderate as they see fit, so that no one can say there's any personal bias on my part. I will still participate when/if useful information is posted up for debate.

Nuno

 

[denvig]

I?m with you Moe I want to know who had the coral, how long, history of problems etc. I do think I have a cure ????.I think if you dip the coral in gasoline for 10 minuets it will kill the flatworms. Oh you still want the coral to live!!!! Back to the drawing board.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Reply

Not sure what you red, but I found out this week about the worms not 3 months ago.

Chuck, this is not a flame. I'm not attacking you or calling you poo poo head or anything Much of this debate is responsible reefkeeping and sales. I just reread the thread, it seems that you knew 2 or 3 months ago that you had these worms. You sold me frags 1 month ago. No warning that you had the pests. My point here is that it got by you, a hobbiest, how can anyone expect an LFS dealing with hundreds and hundreds of corals from multiple suppliers to be able to catch, qt, cure every pest. Impossible!!

 

[One Eye]

. I lost 2 colonies to these worms around 2 months ago...and now I am fighting to save the presently infested colony.

Right here Chuck.

 

[One Eye]

I bought frags from Ray around 3 months ago. Not knowing of these flatworms, I was confused why 2 out of the 3 colonies I got from him started to bleach from the bottom up. I removed the 2 colonies and inspected them, finding eggs attached to the bottom of the 2 colonies. I disposed of the 2 colonies. This was the first time I ever observed these eggs on any of my colonies. I waited a month before selling frags or buying any new ones and observed my tank. There were absolutely no corals that died or bleached during that month. All of the corals in my tank at that time had been in my tank for at leas 1/2 year with no problems.

Here also Chuck.
I do appreciate the fact that you offered to buy back your frags in an earlier post, but, after these frags have been in my system for a few days, if the pest are on them, the damage is done. I do believe that these frags came through clean and I'm not really upset...just kinda wondering why all this fuss about lfs ethics when you sold corals without warnings of pest after you knew you had them.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Response

Nuno, let me try to respond to you in a clear, calm, consice civilized manner:

First of all, you might not think that your were insulting, but since I am the recipient of your comment, you cannot make that call. You definitely were insulting me in my opinion. And you continue to be.

Secondly, I never demanded compensation..I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and plenty of expendable income...it is not spending the money it's about getting your money worth and more importantly not wasting 100s of hours of time and corals.

Third, I never retracted anything, I admitted my mistake, and issued a correction regarding the number of corals involved and the time period like a grown adult, in a public forum for all to see and now you are criticizing me for it. I stand by everything I said except for the timeline
and the number of corals bought at AA as explained in my corrected post.

Fourth, now you are making negative comments regarding my character that have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.

Fifth, you are insinuating that my statements are damaging to my frag selling...you have absolutely no knowledge of my finances and my frag sales have nothing to do with any of this. If I were so concened about the effects of this thread on frag sales, I never would have started it... I ADMITTED THAT I HAVE FLATWORMS UNLIKE THE LFSs...instead I took a big risk, but a risk that I hope will pay off for everyone in the end.

Sixth, yes at first I did feel like a victim. I chose to take those feelings and turn them into something positive...stimulating people to start thinking about and talking about these worms.

Seventh, I never carry on pointless arguments as you suggest. I informed many people of the worms that did not know about them before this thread, I publicized all of my mistakes, I suggested a few things that could help get rid of the worms, and I revealed the source of the infected frags as best I could.

Eighth, and most important of all is I still believe that not quarantining is a big mistake and is a totally irresponsible way to be involved in this hobby.

My post was not insulting, if you can't understand that theway you've been behaving since the beginning of this mess is not appropriate (again) -- slowly but surely evolving from being the victim and demanding compensation, then retracting your statements when it was clear that they were damaging to you and your frag selling, and then quickly coming up with "solutions" and "facts" purported to save us all from the bugs -- then there's really nothing else I can say...



I know... and that is good. There's plenty here for people to make an informed judgement about character.

Since you're clearly just reeling people into pointless arguments, this is my last post on this thread directed to you. Other moderators can and will moderate as they see fit, so that no one can say there's any personal bias on my part. I will still participate when/if useful information is posted up for debate.

Nuno

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

One Eye

At the time, I did not know that these eggs were those of parasitic flatworms, but I threw out the colonies since they were dying. This week I saw the eggs again and matched them up to pictures online....only then was I able to make a positive ID.

The offer still stands to buy back the corals...but I really think they are fine.

First, the eggs will not grow on healthy tissue.
Second, the frags were in my frag tank, far away from the infected colonies.
Third, every single mother colony in my display is not exhibiting "baldness" at the bottom of the base. They are also fully extending their polyps which is a good sign.

Here also Chuck.
I do appreciate the fact that you offered to buy back your frags in an earlier post, but, after these frags have been in my system for a few days, if the pest are on them, the damage is done. I do believe that these frags came through clean and I'm not really upset...just kinda wondering why all this fuss about lfs ethics when you sold corals without warnings of pest after you knew you had them.

 

[NateHanson]

In this and any other thread, we moderators always ask that all members restrict their comments to the subject matter of the thread. We can keep this thread helpful and informative if we refrain from personal tit-fer-tat exchanges. I am reminding everyone that personally directed comments should be reserved for private messaging, or better yet, kept to yourself.

This is a general comment. I'm not censuring any individual, but we all know these guidelines, and I'm reminding people to stick to them so we don't derail a useful thread.

Thanks, Nate

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

One Eye...thanks for helping me set things straight

 

[One Eye]

No problem, ....I'm pretty quick for a cyclopes.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Thanks Nate

I am trying REALLY HARD to stick to the topic...

In this and any other thread, we moderators always ask that all members restrict their comments to the subject matter of the thread. We can keep this thread helpful and informative if we refrain from personal tit-fer-tat exchanges. I am reminding everyone that personally directed comments should be reserved for private messaging, or better yet, kept to yourself.

This is a general comment. I'm not censuring any individual, but we all know these guidelines, and I'm reminding people to stick to them so we don't derail a useful thread.

Thanks, Nate

 

[saltwaterB]

WOW!!!

Someone told me about this thread today at the shop.


Chuck,

Honestly, are you XXXXX kidding me? What you are proposing is completely impossible to do and be 100% perfect. Or the end result would be an $80 Acropora costing at least $200. There is not (to my knowledge) a single Wholesaler that quarantines their livestock for any serious period of time. This industry is in today out tomorrow, and yes that is a big problem. And many LFS and Organizations (MAC, AMDA, etc.) are trying to change this. The bigger problem lies in the cost to do all that you have stated. If I was to try to comply completely with your "Facts" I would lose a ton of money period. I would rather just not carry SPS. We all do our best to inspect and check then quarantine any livestock that is not 100%. If not then we(LFS)would not be in business, we would have lost our entire systems long ago, It is only in our best interest to do this. Now I have been to and worked at plenty of LFS where the staff is not knowledgable enough to know what to even look for. Now are you going to march into all (thousands and thousands) of those LFS and demend and enforce these conditions? Frankly, I think they would laugh at you and go on with business as usual. Especially because (and this is unfortunate) you/we are among the very small percent of our LFS actual customer base. Most customers are uneducated about their tanks and livestock. And I can tell you from years of experience that more than 60% of the hobbyists could care less. Anyone that knows me will tell ya. I am more than glad to talk to and educate any customer. Many times as I am catching livestock I try and educate the customer briefly on what they are buying, and most of the time they could care less what I am saying or literally walk away and look for the next thing to purchase. (kind of depresses me sometimes )
I would love to see you open a shop. You would be closed in less than a year. If you could even get enough money together to open a good shop and do it right (about 2 million$) the overhead is outrageous, electricity, water, staff, stock, etc. And just how long it would take you to see any kind of return on that initial investment. Especially enforcing your facts and policies. In a perfect world it would work and it would be great, and I would have already opened that shop lol. But we do not live in a perfect world. The bottom line is that we are dealing with living organisms here. There are so many variables involved.
My prime example of why we can not garauntee any livestock.
Customer buys X, Y, Z. Then continues on with their day makes a few stops leaves the bags in the car on the front seat. Customer comes back 2 days later X & Z are dead, I want my money back. Now, what do you do? Give the customer a refund? If they left it in a cold/hot car for a hour or so, who's fault is it that X and Z are dead? Living things are a very delicate commodity. When a wholesaler or LFS Tranships(gets livestock direct from point of origin) there is usually 5% or less compensation for any DOA livestock, never mind if it dies a few days after you get it. And any compensation is stricktly for the actual cost of the item, when the shipping can cost 3-4 times as much as the item (no reibursment for the shipping) So to be 100% honest you will never get rich or barely make a living owning an LFS especially if you rely on Livestock. LFS make money on drygoods (they don't die!) Now with all these internet sites selling drygoods for less than most LFS pay for the same product, you will see less and less LFS around. (very sad)
I thought the purpose of this thread is to make people aware of the Acro Flatworms, and discuss them and posible methods for eradication, and not to bash LFS and the industry. We definately have a lot to learn about these nasty worms. But as with everything we will have to learn how to deal with them. Most likely as soon as we figure out how to manage these, something else will be infesting our tanks.


If any one has any infested corals they would like to donate, I have been talking with a couple of people and would like to try a few things out on them and the eggs.

-B-

sorry for any spelling or grammer errors. lol

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Hey Brendon !

You make some very informative points here. You have worked in the industry and bring to the table "the real world" practical aspects of running a shop. I respect your opinion and response. I also respect the many hours of advice that you have given to me and the way that you improved Skipton's so much in the last few years.

However, today's LFS paradigm is not necessarily the best one. The present paradigm must have more room to grow and to advance to the point that quarantine is possible and also cost effective. Technology continues to evolve in all apects of aquaculture.....look how far it has come in the last 20 years. 20 years ago, reef keeping was probably not even possible in the way it is today.

I can't believe that there is no room for improvement in the LFS paradigm. Just like everything else, the changes might be expensive at first. But if the changes happen slowly and the technology for keeping corals and fish continues to improve, more people will get involved in the hobby and eventually prices would drop.

However, these are just my opinions and I never proported to know everything.....this is just a discussion not a mandate. Let MAC and AMDA worry about the mandates and certifications.

FWIW I have an infected coral soaking in 1.021 water...you are welcome to have it.

WOW!!!

Someone told me about this thread today at the shop.


Chuck,

Honestly, are you F*@#!%G kidding me? What you are proposing is completely impossible to do and be 100% perfect. Or the end result would be an $80 Acropora costing at least $200. There is not (to my knowledge) a single Wholesaler that quarantines their livestock for any serious period of time. This industry is in today out tomorrow, and yes that is a big problem. And many LFS and Organizations (MAC, AMDA, etc.) are trying to change this. The bigger problem lies in the cost to do all that you have stated. If I was to try to comply completely with your "Facts" I would lose a ton of money period. I would rather just not carry SPS. We all do our best to inspect and check then quarantine any livestock that is not 100%. If not then we(LFS)would not be in business, we would have lost our entire systems long ago, It is only in our best interest to do this. Now I have been to and worked at plenty of LFS where the staff is not knowledgable enough to know what to even look for. Now are you going to march into all (thousands and thousands) of those LFS and demend and enforce these conditions? Frankly, I think they would laugh at you and go on with business as usual. Especially because (and this is unfortunate) you/we are among the very small percent of our LFS actual customer base. Most customers are uneducated about their tanks and livestock. And I can tell you from years of experience that more than 60% of the hobbyists could care less. Anyone that knows me will tell ya. I am more than glad to talk to and educate any customer. Many times as I am catching livestock I try and educate the customer briefly on what they are buying, and most of the time they could care less what I am saying or literally walk away and look for the next thing to purchase. (kind of depresses me sometimes )
I would love to see you open a shop. You would be closed in less than a

year. If you could even get enough money together to open a good shop and do it right (about 2 million$) the overhead is outrageous, electricity, water, staff, stock, etc. And just how long it would take you to see any kind of return on that initial investment. Especially enforcing your facts and policies. In a perfect world it would work and it would be great, and I would have already opened that shop lol. But we do not live in a perfect world. The bottom line is that we are dealing with living organisms here. There are so many variables involved.
My prime example of why we can not garauntee any livestock.
Customer buys X, Y, Z. Then continues on with their day makes a few stops leaves the bags in the car on the front seat. Customer comes back 2 days later X & Z are dead, I want my money back. Now, what do you do? Give the customer a refund? If they left it in a cold/hot car for a hour or so, who's fault is it that X and Z are dead? Living things are a very delicate commodity. When a wholesaler or LFS Tranships(gets livestock direct from point of origin) there is usually 5% or less compensation for any DOA livestock, never mind if it dies a few days after you get it. And any compensation is stricktly for the actual cost of the item, when the shipping can cost 3-4 times as much as the item (no reibursment for the shipping) So to be 100% honest you will never get rich or barely make a living owning an LFS especially if you rely on Livestock. LFS make money on drygoods (they don't die!) Now with all these internet sites selling drygoods for less than most LFS pay for the same product, you will see less and less LFS around. (very sad)
I thought the purpose of this thread is to make people aware of the Acro Flatworms, and discuss them and posible methods for eradication, and not to bash LFS and the industry. We definately have a lot to learn about these nasty worms. But as with everything we will have to learn how to deal with them. Most likely as soon as we figure out how to manage these, something else will be infesting our tanks.


If any one has any infested corals they would like to donate, I have been talking with a couple of people and would like to try a few things out on them and the eggs.

-B-

sorry for any spelling or grammer errors. lol

 

[clamm]

Thanks -b- good insight about the industry in general... back to the topic at hand...how and what would you suggest are reasonable expectations of a lfs and of the consumer?

Any recommendation for the hobbyist who is getting into SPS...in dealing with these knowing that the current treatments just aren't working...

Im torn because setting up a quarantine for one piece to watch it for two to three weeks probably isn't my definition of reasonable...however...perhaps its me that shouldn't keep them during this time... I have wanted to get sps...these things have me questioning that...and wanting to find out everything I can to prevent it. As Greg pointed out if its not flat worms its red mites if not red bugs then something else...so we are really fighting a tough battle here...

Anyone here anything from Calfo on the matter? What he does in his systems to prevent such things...