Parasitic Acro Flatworms: PLEASE HELP !

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Also, they will not lay eggs on healthy tissue.

So I really think I don't have them. All my acros are looking really good, including the milli and prostata I got from Chuck. The only chance would be very small worms coming in on the milli and prostata frags, hiding out on the frags for the 3+ weeks I had them in qt (it is possible) and now infesting other acros. I guess they tend to like the type of acros that red mites like, tri colors, Larry Jacksons.......the fleshier smaller polyped acros. So all I can really do for now is wait and watch.
 
Joe, I would think that Clown Gobies would probably help the flatworms by clearing out polyps and tissue allowing them open area to lay thier eggs.
 
BTW, The people I spoke with last night said that they treated FW Exit at 20 X normal dose, lugols at 20X, Sea Chem reef dip at 20X and I think Intereceptor (there was a 4th treatment) all at the same time and the flatworms laughed at him.
You can actualy drip FW Exit right on these flatworms and it has no effect.

They're monsters and I believe they will take over the earth as soon as they develope lungs and can breath fresh air.
 
etszoo, they don't know why yet. They actualy have put the flatworms into systems purposely and the worms just didn't take hold. Hopefully they figure out what it is so we can all do it.
 
Darren do you know of those guys used any kind of medication that is effective against parasite eggs,for example i wonder if a medication for say fleas that is able to kill the eggs would work on these eggs?
I understand they are a totally different pest but maybe there is something specific to thsat typoe medication that can destroy an egg?
 
I don't know specificly what types of meds are being tested, but I know they are going through the process. They're looking into exactly what you asked Liam. The same way Interceptor was discovered to work for the mites.
 
One Eye said:
They're monsters and I believe they will take over the earth as soon as they develope lungs and can breath fresh air.


Maybe I'm just a naive newbie, but what if you hung the coral so that the healthy part of the coral is in the water and the infected part was out of the water? Suffocate the little bandits..

or is that bad for the coral to be hung upside down and partially out of water?

Melody~
 
One Eye said:
Also, they will not lay eggs on healthy tissue.

So I really think I don't have them. All my acros are looking really good, including the milli and prostata I got from Chuck. The only chance would be very small worms coming in on the milli and prostata frags, hiding out on the frags for the 3+ weeks I had them in qt (it is possible) and now infesting other acros. I guess they tend to like the type of acros that red mites like, tri colors, Larry Jacksons.......the fleshier smaller polyped acros. So all I can really do for now is wait and watch.


Dude, Just to let you know...They do like millis & prostratas. I know someone who had a milli ravaged to the bone by them. I don't believe they are too fond of montipora. If anyone knows of someone with an outbreak or eggs on a Monti please post.
 
After reading every thread on RC and other places, my view is this:

Fact #1 These worms can't be killed yet since there is no known medication to accomplish this and these worms can devastate an SPS tank.

Fact #2 Given that these FW can't be killed or even 100% removed from corals, then LFSs can't be 100% sure that they are not selling you infested corals.

Fact #3 Until a killing agent is found, LFSs AND buyers must quarantine all corals for at least 4 weeks. There already a few stores that do this...now all of them need to comply. The infected corals need to be discarded at least until an effective kill agent is found.

Fact #4 LFSs and frag traders and sellers need to be open and vocal about these worms. If you have them on even just 1 SPS and tou are a trader or private seller, you must wait at least a month or 2 before you resume trading/selling

Fact #5 We need to make a LOT OF LOUD NOISE regarding these critters in an attempt to get LFSs and hobbyist fraggers to invest their time into finding a kill agent for these worms and their eggs.


Only via rigorous quarantine by BOTH LFSs and the end user can these worms be prevented from entering your tank. If all of the responsibility lies with the end user, then he will have to bear all of the cost....no one will replace a colony after a month of Quarantine when you start to see eggs on it.
 
While I agree that we should encourage the LFS to quarantine and work on finding a cure, I think we as a club and individual reefers need to be primarily responsible for doing both of these things for our selves. Why hope that the LFS quarantines and works many hard hours to research a cure, when we could take responsibility ourselves and do the same?

I'm certainly not saying that the LFS shouldn't be a part of solving this problem, but I think a substantial or even predominant portion of the responsibility should be taken up by the club and by individual consumers. I think the most that can be required of a vendor is that they are vigilant and up-front with customers about flatworms, and make a point of not selling corals that they know or suspect are infested with this or any other pest.

Take the example of buying a fish. It's not entirely uncommon that a fish dies a month or two after being acclimated. I recall a number of members recently had this happen to CBB. The cause of death is often unknown, and there was no indication of a problem when the fish was bought, or even for many weeks afterwards. If this sort of problem which can't be detected at time of sale, and doesn't become evident until months after the sale, how can the LFS be expected to bear responsibility for it? Should they individually quarantine all fish for 8 weeks? Should there be a month-viability guarantee? To me all of these solutions are impractical. The consumer has to bear some of the risk involved in keeping these delicate creatures. Personally I think we're lucky to have vendors both locally and online, who are willing to replace livestock for a couple days after purchase. Asking more than that, in my mind, is not reasonable.

That's the way I see it anyways.
Nate
 
My View

I completely disagree at least with the coral portion of your argument. This is the kind of mindset, in my opinion, that allows the LFS people to be lax and gives them cart blanche to sell SPS corals without any responsibility. The reasoning goes like this: I buy a coral and check it over and see no eggs or flatworms although there are a few worms on it that are hidden (note these flatworms are hard to see in their initial stages even for the LFS people). I put the coral in a quarantine tank at home and wait for a month and voila, the worms grow from their small juvenile state to adults and they lay eggs on the coral.

Now, remember it has been weeks or even a month since I bought the coral. I remove it from my quarantine tank and bring it to the LFS. I challenge all LFSs right here and now to take all of these infested corals back given that they were quarantined at home by me or other SPS owners.....I do not think they would accept this challenge. If they will...I stand corrected and an interim solution is born, at least until a safe kill agent is found.

But what then does the LFS do with the infested coral? Throw it out and lose $...Not likely. So, they will have no choice but to impose strict quarantine at the LFS level, wholesaler level or higher. Maybe prices go up and maybe corals are harder to get, but so be it until a kill agent is found for these pests. If the LFSs and wholesalers do not do quarantine and/or do not replace corals, then we all lose and since we pay for the corals we are the only one who lose. They will keep selling as though bussiness as usual and we all lose. The wholesalers and higher will also run in "bussiness as usual" mode. It is time to make everyone lose so that quarantining becomes a regular practice at the LFS and higher levels at least until a kill agent is found. The LFSs have the carrot...us, we are willing to spend $50 for a tort frag or $100 for our favorite coral or more! They have the luxury of a huge instantaneous customer base with the BRS and RC sponsorship program. It is time to employ the stick and make LFSs as well as their suppliers accept the fact that we will not buy infested corals and waste our money. This could motivate them to more quickly impose stricter protocols for handling all marine life...which is not a bad thing, no? If we stop buying, believe me the LFSs and above will find many creative solutions. If we keep buying and accept responsibility for these pests, at best some shops will quarantine, some will not, some may knowingly sell you diseased organisms, some may unwittingly sell diseased organsims....but either way, you lose, unless a really liberal return policy is adopted.

That being said, everyone should still quarantine all of their purchases, corals and fish alike. This will catch the 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 % of diseased marine life that is not found at the higher levels. I agree that the LFSs can't do everything but they must champion the effort (Look who solved the Red Bug problem...ORA!) I also encourage everyone to look for a cure and read up on these pests. Maybe we could form a "tiger team" consisting of biologists, chemists, engineers, and others to work to find a kill agent. The Tiger Team could work off of donations in the same way that Eric Borneman and Inland Reef funded their studies. I volunteer to set this up if anyone is interested.

We need to take action now and stop accepting the status quo.

Nate, I have some beautiful colonies that are all worm free....would you like to stop by and buy some? :D :p :eek:



NateHanson said:
While I agree that we should encourage the LFS to quarantine and work on finding a cure, I think we as a club and individual reefers need to be primarily responsible for doing both of these things for our selves. Why hope that the LFS quarantines and works many hard hours to research a cure, when we could take responsibility ourselves and do the same?

I'm certainly not saying that the LFS shouldn't be a part of solving this problem, but I think a substantial or even predominant portion of the responsibility should be taken up by the club and by individual consumers. I think the most that can be required of a vendor is that they are vigilant and up-front with customers about flatworms, and make a point of not selling corals that they know or suspect are infested with this or any other pest.

Take the example of buying a fish. It's not entirely uncommon that a fish dies a month or two after being acclimated. I recall a number of members recently had this happen to CBB. The cause of death is often unknown, and there was no indication of a problem when the fish was bought, or even for many weeks afterwards. If this sort of problem which can't be detected at time of sale, and doesn't become evident until months after the sale, how can the LFS be expected to bear responsibility for it? Should they individually quarantine all fish for 8 weeks? Should there be a month-viability guarantee? To me all of these solutions are impractical. The consumer has to bear some of the risk involved in keeping these delicate creatures. Personally I think we're lucky to have vendors both locally and online, who are willing to replace livestock for a couple days after purchase. Asking more than that, in my mind, is not reasonable.

That's the way I see it anyways.
Nate
 
I think I'll just ask the stores if they guarantee corals are free of pests before I buy.
 
I'll second Nate's opinion... asking for an unconditional, 2-month long replacement/money-back warranty from any LFS is just unreasonable... put yourself in their shoes for a moment: how can they know for sure that the coral didn't get the bugs after being put in your system? What if it dies for no apparent reason, like RTN, would such a warranty also apply? Doesn't make sense, since they have no control over the kind of husbandry and environment you put the coral in after you took it home.

I think the most that can be asked is that an LFS doesn't knowingly sell diseased animals, and I believe most are already doing this.

Remember that you're buying living animals that are poorly understood even from a scientific point of view, and there is simply no way to guarantee that they're 100% healthy upon purchase... especially in a hobby that's so "on the edge" (to me a reef tank is much more like a science experiment than a natural biotope) you're going to have to accept at least some risk of having the animal you bought die after it's in your care.

Nuno
 
Im sure the stores are just as motivated to find a cure as any hobbiest...consider the amount of money sitting at CRA or AA, or any store for that matter. Assuming that they Just don't care enough to try is foolish...look what they have to lose.
 
Also, I don't believe the "voting with your dollars" reasoning -- ie, boycotting LFSs that unknowingly sell diseased animals -- would work as you'd expect... what I think would happen is that they would be forced to close their doors, as they obviously don't have the resources or the space to conduct these "search for a cure" experiments... who would survive? The big online vendors, who are much less likely to be affected by a local (or even widespread) boycott than an independent LFS.

Nuno
 
Im with nate/nuno on this one. The stores dont have the time/resources/funds to do this and to take all the loss. It is a risk of the hobby. If there was so much $$ in running a lfs everyone would be doing it and staying in business. I think lfs already lose plenty of money on stuff that dies before it is bought and cant afford to increase that. Besides the price of corals would increase 4x if they did that. I think you would be better off buying 2 and hoping one lived then paying 4x for one...
 
Tell ya what, though, this newest coral pest has defintely underscored my reluctance to buy coral online. I want to see the coral before I buy, now more than ever.
 
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