Parasitic Acro Flatworms: PLEASE HELP !

[Greg Hiller]

>The Tiger Team could work off of donations in the same way that Eric Borneman and Inland Reef funded their studies.<

I'm not sure I'd use these two studies as examples. There are a lot of people VERY angry at both Borneman and Matt at IRA about these studies because nothing ever came of them. But point taken.

My opinion is that these parasites (as well as many others) are always going to be coming in on wild colonies occasionally, and it might be quite rarely. The trick (my opinion again) is for wholesalers (or dealers or LFS's handling these corals) to occasionally completely clear their holding systems of ALL corals. To also reduce the chances of the parasites hanging around it would probably help if you had the live rock filtration of the system partially isolated from the holding tank of the corals. The corals would then be in a glass box that was easily cleaned (I mean siphoned clean, maybe even dry) once in a while. The parasites of course can live for some time period without a coral, but I think if you followed the above procedure for a holding system, you would be a lot less likely to have a lingering infection in your holding system that would transfer the parasites to all colonies that came through.

I knew of one LFS that never really had problems with the old red photosynthetic flatworms (C. retrogramma). I asked why and they said they regularly siphon their holding system down completely so that nothing is left in the tank. I know that this is not a 'natural' way to go, and is kind of foreign to us in these days of live rock, live sand, natural systems....but for an LFS dealing with new, wild collected corals coming in every week, the somewhat 'un-natural' systems Might be better for minimizing the introduction of problematic critters.

 

[stang8s]

Tell ya what, though, this newest coral pest has defintely underscored my reluctance to buy coral online. I want to see the coral before I buy, now more than ever.

But I dont think most stores are going to let you pull the coral out of the water and inspect it close enough to see this. Can you imagine the reaction you would get at tropic isle for instance??

 

[~Flighty~]

I think it is totally not feasable to expect a lfs to qt corals for months or gaurontee them for months. I think if they did that, the price of corals would be 10x what they are now. I know I wouldn't pay that kind of money. I think what will happen is that acros will now be considered a very dificult coral with no garontees

This is a devistating pest that there is no treatment for. I'm not going to buy any acros from anywhere untill a treatment is found. Right now I think it is too big of a risk of my money. I know If I had an acro dominated tank I would be setting up a large perminant QT system for everything that goes into the tank from corals to snails.

This is a hobby that deals with live critters. Things like this happen and it is up to the hobbiest to protect their investment and spend their money wisely.

 

[Moe_K]

Heheh Good point, Jeff.

The best defense is prevention via a long stay in a Q/T tank, I guess.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Read Again

I really do not understand why everyone is more concerned for the LFSs than they are about themselves and fellow hobbyists and the advancement of the Reef Keeping hobby as a whole. Just because something is done incorrectly or a certain way for a long time does not necessarily mean that change is bad.

Nunofs, you did not read my reply carefully. How can you get the worms if you quarantine the coral at home? They would have had to come on the coral from the LFS. Do you mean that the LFS should not trust that we quarantined but that we should trust them?

You won't have to take some of the risk if you have the worms and discover them later....it is 100% certain a flatworm infected coral will die or that you would not want to put it in your tank...you will be taking 100% of the risk every time you buy an infected SPS coral. Nuno, maybe you want to assume 100% of the risk, but I do not.

If you ask a LFS if the coral is diseased you might get "No" "Don't think so", or "As far as I can tell", but you will never get "Yes, it is infected...do not buy it".

Quarantine at LFS will strengthen this hobby and better protect the buyer and even the retail seller, and it's time has come. Nuno who would you buy from? A store that quarantines all corals for a month or one that get's them in one day and sells them the next? And today, stores ARE getting in corals on one day and selling them the next.....with a protocol like that no wonder these worms and other parasites end up in our tanks.

I'll second Nate's opinion... asking for an unconditional, 2-month long replacement/money-back warranty from any LFS is just unreasonable... put yourself in their shoes for a moment: how can they know for sure that the coral didn't get the bugs after being put in your system? What if it dies for no apparent reason, like RTN, would such a warranty also apply? Doesn't make sense, since they have no control over the kind of husbandry and environment you put the coral in after you took it home.

I think the most that can be asked is that an LFS doesn't knowingly sell diseased animals, and I believe most are already doing this.

Remember that you're buying living animals that are poorly understood even from a scientific point of view, and there is simply no way to guarantee that they're 100% healthy upon purchase... especially in a hobby that's so "on the edge" (to me a reef tank is much more like a science experiment than a natural biotope) you're going to have to accept at least some risk of having the animal you bought die after it's in your care.

Nuno

 

[clamm]

Speaking pretty bluntly, because I want the LFS that I have had good experience with to be right down the street for years to come.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>I'm not going to buy any acros from anywhere untill a treatment is found.<

Cindy, The thing to keep in mind though is that most of these parasitic organisms are very specific. Meaning, if you have no Acros in your tank and you happen to get these on a Acro colony you buy, they will take out that colony, then die quickly die for lack of another host.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Thanks Greg

Greg,

Wow, did not realize that Boneman and Inland studies "flopped". That's a shame.

I think your protocol of running fallow tanks is a great idea. All that is required are (ideally) two bins (well maybe 2 parallel systems), one that houses corals that are ready to go, and another running fallow and then periodically switching them!

>The Tiger Team could work off of donations in the same way that Eric Borneman and Inland Reef funded their studies.<

I'm not sure I'd use these two studies as examples. There are a lot of people VERY angry at both Borneman and Matt at IRA about these studies because nothing ever came of them. But point taken.

My opinion is that these parasites (as well as many others) are always going to be coming in on wild colonies occasionally, and it might be quite rarely. The trick (my opinion again) is for wholesalers (or dealers or LFS's handling these corals) to occasionally completely clear their holding systems of ALL corals. To also reduce the chances of the parasites hanging around it would probably help if you had the live rock filtration of the system partially isolated from the holding tank of the corals. The corals would then be in a glass box that was easily cleaned (I mean siphoned clean, maybe even dry) once in a while. The parasites of course can live for some time period without a coral, but I think if you followed the above procedure for a holding system, you would be a lot less likely to have a lingering infection in your holding system that would transfer the parasites to all colonies that came through.

I knew of one LFS that never really had problems with the old red photosynthetic flatworms (C. retrogramma). I asked why and they said they regularly siphon their holding system down completely so that nothing is left in the tank. I know that this is not a 'natural' way to go, and is kind of foreign to us in these days of live rock, live sand, natural systems....but for an LFS dealing with new, wild collected corals coming in every week, the somewhat 'un-natural' systems Might be better for minimizing the introduction of problematic critters.

 

[nunofs]

How can you get the worms if you quarantine the coral at home? They would have had to come on the coral from the LFS. Do you mean that the LFS should not trust that we quarantined but that we should trust them?

You won't have to take some of the risk if you have the worms and discover them later....it is 100% certain a flatworm infected coral will die or that you would not want to put it in your tank...you will be taking 100% of the risk every time you buy an infected SPS coral. Nuno, maybe you want to assume 100% of the risk, but I do not.

So what you're saying is that you'll setup a completely isolated tank -- with it's own lights, skimmer, etc -- for each coral or frag that you buy... because if you put more than one coral in your quarantine tank, there goes your chance of "proving" that it came diseased from the LFS... again, that's just not feasible for most of us. Of course, you could buy just one coral every two months, quarantine it for 2 months (but who knows for sure that 2 months is enough anyway?), move it to your display tank and then you'd be free to buy another coral... that's just not the nature of the hobby, from the little I've seen so far. Great finds come at unexpected times, you'd be passing up on a lot of interesting stuff if you could only have a single quarantine tank and buy a single coral every 2 months...

I don't take 100% of the risk except when I buy online (and you do too, I've seen you post praise of some online vendors -- how can you assess the health of something you've only seen a picture of?) because I try and inspect the corals as best as I can and as best as the conditions allow it... I will always be taking some risk, but for me that's just the way it is with a live animal. If I didn't want that kind of risk, I'd be collecting stamps or baseball cards (and even there, who knows where it could have been before )

Nuno

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Absolutely!

Mee Too! I love going to Sea Creatures in Revere and I really can not wait until Reefdom's 300 gallon SPS tank is set up. But, I expect quality and at least some responsibility to be taken by the LFSs. The only way to do that is to demand it and to accept nothing less. In the end, everyone will benefit: the LFSs, Collectors, Wholesalers, the animals, and of course the hobbyist.
I want LFSs to thrive but I also want them to improve....would you want them to stop stocking new products? Or would you want them to stock older inferior products? I vote for advancement including better protocols for handling all marine life. Right now the "shipment is in today" resounds in the heads of all the hobbyists and they all run to scoop up the best corals. That paradigm has to change to.... "Today that coral I bought is coming out of a 1 month quarantine at my favorite Reef Store and I can't wait to go get it!"

Hmmmm, maybe I should set up my own store and do it the right way and let the current stores continue to Buy today and Sell tomorrow. A store that quarantines everything for a month would maybe charge a lttle more per fish or per frag....but where would you rather shop?

Speaking pretty bluntly, because I want the LFS that I have had good experience with to be right down the street for years to come.

 

[~Flighty~]

>I'm not going to buy any acros from anywhere untill a treatment is found.<

Cindy, The thing to keep in mind though is that most of these parasitic organisms are very specific. Meaning, if you have no Acros in your tank and you happen to get these on a Acro colony you buy, they will take out that colony, then die quickly die for lack of another host.

I'm just saying, I don't have the resources to QT everything so I'm not going to grow acros right now. I don't want to have a colony grow out nicely, then wory every time I add some snails or rock or whatever to the system from a system that might have had acro tissue somewhere in it. I also think a treatment will be found if we give it a little time.

 

[JeremyR]

I'm just saying, I don't have the resources to QT everything so I'm not going to grow acros right now. I don't want to have a colony grow out nicely, then wory every time I add some snails or rock or whatever to the system from a system that might have had acro tissue somewhere in it. I also think a treatment will be found if we give it a little time.

Quite possible, at least for QT tanks. We may not end up with a magic bullet like interceptor, but I"m confident that we will end up with some sortof dip or quarantine drug that will do the trick. Until then, everyone keep your panties on.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

MindSet

Well I admit, my mindset was totally as you stated.....Buy Buy Buy. The temptation was always there, especially when I had been looking for that "one special coral" for a year. That IS NOT the nature of the hobby. All of the books I read say to take your time and go slow and I ignored all of it and as a result have failed at that. I bought impulsively and thought short term and that is not the nature of the hobby. It is aslo frankly irresponsible, since we are dealing with living things and not baseball cards.

But, no more. I have learned that you can't be succesful in this hobby in the longterm with that mindset. Patience and more patience. OK, so maybe I miss out on a gem, but that is thinking short term. I am the proof...I have done it...ask anyone who has seen me shop on the tours....I am consistently the big money spender....and I do not take pride in admitting that. The gem will be available again someday and no gem is worth risking your whole system especially for larger systems like mine.

In the long term, I will be better off by waiting, since my quarantine tank can only house 1 coral at a time per month. What's wrong with waiting a month? My old ways are gone...too much $ wasted, too many coral deaths. I am done doing this, period. Tonight I will shop for my new quarantine sysem...something we all should do. If you do not have the means to set up a quarantine system then you are not ready to responsibly handle this hobby. Everyone needs to quarantine..period.

So what you're saying is that you'll setup a completely isolated tank -- with it's own lights, skimmer, etc -- for each coral or frag that you buy... because if you put more than one coral in your quarantine tank, there goes your chance of "proving" that it came diseased from the LFS... again, that's just not feasible for most of us. Of course, you could buy just one coral every two months, quarantine it for 2 months (but who knows for sure that 2 months is enough anyway?), move it to your display tank and then you'd be free to buy another coral... that's just not the nature of the hobby, from the little I've seen so far. Great finds come at unexpected times, you'd be passing up on a lot of interesting stuff if you could only have a single quarantine tank and buy a single coral every 2 months...

I don't take 100% of the risk except when I buy online (and you do too, I've seen you post praise of some online vendors -- how can you assess the health of something you've only seen a picture of?) because I try and inspect the corals as best as I can and as best as the conditions allow it... I will always be taking some risk, but for me that's just the way it is with a live animal. If I didn't want that kind of risk, I'd be collecting stamps or baseball cards (and even there, who knows where it could have been before )

Nuno

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Panties?

I wear underwear....but I respect your right to wear panties, thongs, heels, nylons, garters, whatever

Quite possible, at least for QT tanks. We may not end up with a magic bullet like interceptor, but I"m confident that we will end up with some sortof dip or quarantine drug that will do the trick. Until then, everyone keep your panties on.

 

[nunofs]

Well, good luck with your new ways... but keep in mind that they're your ways, although you're trying to pass them as the right way. Honestly, I don't particularly care for the way you try to make up rules and "facts" for everyone, looking like the saviour of the hobby:

Fact #3 Until a killing agent is found, LFSs AND buyers must quarantine all corals for at least 4 weeks. (...)

Fact #4 (...) you must wait at least a month or 2 before you resume trading/selling

If you do not have the means to set up a quarantine system then you are not ready to responsibly handle this hobby. Everyone needs to quarantine..period.

Do it your way -- and I honestly wish you luck and good results -- and refrain from buying frags and corals from people and stores who don't do it your way, just don't try to impose your views on the entire hobby as being the absolute truth.

Nuno

 

[One Eye]

Chuck, there are a boat load of on-line vendors that claim 8 week qt before sale. Blane is one of them. The only thing I ever got from Blane that lived is the complimentory coffe cup.
The seperate qt tank and live rock in another part of the system for filtration idea sounds good BUT these things are known to travel through the ENTIRE system. As I posted before, 2 seperate tanks shareing a sump, the worms went from one system to another AND had to get through skimmer, pumps and UV sterilizer to get there.
Like Jeremy said. They are working on it, don't get your panties in a bunch If you have them, qt the infected coral, do the dips, it doesn't kill them but it does cause them to come off the coral into the water where they can be syphoned or netted. Do it often, try and break the cycle. If you consistently dip and scape off eggs eventualy you'll take the population down.
These things have been around as long as corals have been in the ocean, they're just catching todays spotlight. WooHoo thier 15 minutes of fame!!

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Calm Down

Wow, as a moderator I am surprised at your anger towards me. Especially since you are always taking every chance you get to tell me to calm down and that I am writing angry posts.

I am imposing nothing on anyone. People are free to do and think what they want to. I don't think of people as dummies who can't think from themselves and that they will do everything that they see online. Rather, I know that most people can form their own opinions after reading what is posted here. They then have the option of joining in with their own opinions in an intelligent manner and doing what they want with the information.

One thing for sure though is that everyone must quarantine everything. This is not my rule, but rather the opinion of many experts like Fenner, Calfo, Sprung, Borneman, etc.

Nuno, in your experience, are you sayng you disagree with all of them?

Well, good luck with your new ways... but keep in mind that they're your ways, although you're trying to pass them as the right way. Honestly, I don't particularly care for the way you try to make up rules and "facts" for everyone, looking like the saviour of the hobby:





Do it your way -- and I honestly wish you luck and good results -- and refrain from buying frags and corals from people and stores who don't do it your way, just don't try to impose your views on the entire hobby as being the absolute truth.

Nuno

 

[nunofs]

Wow, as a moderator I am surprised at your anger towards me. Especially since you are always taking every chance you get to tell me to calm down and that I am writing angry posts.

I am imposing nothing on anyone. People are free to do and think what they want to. I don't think of people as dummies who can't think from themselves and that they will do everything that they see online. Rather, I know that most people can form their own opinions after reading what is posted here. They then have the option of joining in with their own opinions in an intelligent manner and doing what they want with the information.

One thing for sure though is that everyone must quarantine everything. This is not my rule, but rather the opinion of many experts like Fenner, Calfo, Sprung, Borneman, etc.

Nuno, in your experience, are you sayng you disagree with all of them?

First, don't confuse an opposing view with anger... I'm pretty calm, thank you very much. I just don't let a discussion like this make me lose my temper.

Since you had to bring it up, I asked you once to calm down, as you can't seem to do it yourself... and since that has caused threads to be closed before, to the loss of everyone else, I felt I had to step in as moderator and make that request before we had to lock yet another thread due to your behavior.

I totally agree with quaratining pretty much everything, I don't dispute its benefits... I actually took a lot of heat a while back for quarantining fish, a lot of people feel that quarantining them is more stressful than just throwing them in the main tank right away... again these were all just personal opinions and no issues arose from the healthy, civilized discussion that developed then.

What I have an issue with -- personally, not as a moderator -- are the "facts" that you came up with... that's my only point.

Nuno

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Huh?

All my posts are exactly what you stated below, an opinion or an opposing opinion..nothing else. All of the facts I wrote down were based on what I read on the worms and not made up by me out of thin air. But no one has to take them as the gospel truth....

I am not confusing anything...Your post was insulting....you said that I am acting like a savior of the hobby. That is an insult, serves no purpose and a ridiculous thing to say. Your post sounds angry to me....Are u saying that it is ok for you, a moderator, to post insults BUT it is not ok for anyone else?

First, don't confuse an opposing view with anger... I'm pretty calm, thank you very much. I just don't let a discussion like this make me lose my temper.

Since you had to bring it up, I asked you once to calm down, as you can't seem to do it yourself... and since that has caused threads to be closed before, to the loss of everyone else, I felt I had to step in as moderator and make that request before we had to lock yet another thread due to your behavior.

I totally agree with quaratining pretty much everything, I don't dispute its benefits... I actually took a lot of heat a while back for quarantining fish, a lot of people feel that quarantining them is more stressful than just throwing them in the main tank right away... again these were all just personal opinions and no issues arose from the healthy, civilized discussion that developed then.

What I have an issue with -- personally, not as a moderator -- are the "facts" that you came up with... that's my only point.

Nuno

 

[stang8s]

Fact 1 & 2 may be this but the rest I agree with Nuno on, they are your opinion/idea and not facts at all.